Mayweather is better than Marquez, but will do much worst against Pacquaio.

[12TRIBEsRiSe]

i see where ur coming from but how will manny defend the right hand? he couldnt even defend algeiries, pac may have won that last fight but go look at pac mans technical flaws and be honest with yourselfs go look at his footwork when he was throwing his punches... maybe he fought that way because he ddnt respect algirries power but it wasnt great at all..., i respect your opinion tho but i think after round 4 floyd will beat pac down with counters and skill, floyd will get touched tho and i see a possible flash knockdown for pac but he just does not have the skill to beat floyd for 12 rounds.

[MPX309]

Nice thread, even though I don't agree on all your points, atleast you've put some thought into it and have explained everything thoroughly which I respect.

[Dr Rumack]

Technical summary


Mayweather is obviously the superior fighter to Marquez. I don't think anyone should be debating that. What people do need to understand is that Mayweather is a fantastic counter puncher defensive fighter that people mistakenly link to Marquez's own counter punching style. They are totally different and one style have always caused Pacquiao trouble, the other will not.


They are completely different fighters who set up their counters completely differently.

First off, the key for Marquez against Pacquiao has always been his constant lateral movement. Not only does he constantly sway at a low center of gravity while rotating away from Pac's left, but he pivots out of range and changes the angle after landing an attack, or even in the middle of an exchange, to completely confuse Pacquiao and take away his ability to take the initiative with his amazingly swift footwork. He does this so much so that in the second half of the fight, he caught Pacquiao with a left hook pretty much behind the head because of how he was able to laterally shift away from an oncoming Manny.


Mayweather on the other hand is a more conventional "slick" counter-puncher who relies on his control of distance to anticipate and neutralize his opponent. While he's brilliant in reading his opponent and measuring his own punches against their own, he usually does this either going straight backwards or straight forwards, with efficient footwork. He has habituated himself to fighting in straight lines in order to land his favorite punches; lead right hands, pull-counters, jabs to the body, counter or lead left hooks, or counter-right uppercuts when swarmed. But one thing Mayweather almost never shows is the type of lateral movement Marquez shows.


De La Hoya, while still game, had an offensive gameplan that relied a lot on mere feints and swarms of activity to back Floyd up, and he usually did so with no problem. Even after Mayweather adjusted to his rhythm and started winning rounds, he hardly ever looked impressive and was backing up consistently without ever shifting towards a laterally-minded gameplan. Wouldn't that have made things easier for him instead of constantly giving up the center and having to retreat to the ropes to counter before escaping? Someone with the style of Hopkins (as in VS Pavlik), for example, would prefer such tactics, and Floyd seems to prefer seeing his opponent right in front of him, positioning himself right in front.



This comfort zone does not appear to be a preferred strategy for someone who can rotate so quickly and match Floyd speed for speed with plenty of pop behind it.(Manny)

This leads into my second point, which is that Marquez's movement allows him to get Pacquiao on the inside and punish him. As an in-the-pocket counter-puncher, Marquez can duck under and find himself body-to-body with pacquiao and take advantage of his unpolished inside game. Uppercuts, combinations, and even spots of controlled aggression (before pivoting out) are something that he can do because of his relatively similar size to Pacquiao.

Now, while people point to Mayweather's reach giving Pacquiao issues, I don't believe he'll be able to use it to control Pacquiao if he shows his regular movement. Floyd's accurate and reflexive, but his defensive stance by nature anchors his back foot to the canvas, and allows someone as fleet-footed as Pacquiao to change the punching angle and capitalize for an offensive opportunity.

Fighting in straight lines is not the way to beat Pacquiao; you have to take away the punching angle, and I don't think at all that Floyd can circle as well as he can back-pedal.

On top of all of this is tempo. While Marquez was able to control pace from time to time, he was still able to fluidly exchange with Pacquiao and see the angles in order to time the better shots while rolling with Pac's own. Mayweather, as skilled and tough and intuitive as he is, has not shown this quality in abundance. The times he's been hurt actually, have been times he's over-committed to his own punches (Corely, Judah, Mosley). He can adjust brilliantly round-to-round, but as controversial as it may sound, I feel he lacks this sort of intangible fluidity Marquez has in his approach.


Once again Floyd is the superior fighter to Marquez but he lack the particular attributes that Marquez have in the counter punching game that have so enabled Marquez to be Manny's biggest nightmare.

Good post. Pay no attention to the triangle theory and KO6 type responses.

[mrpizza-nd_beer]

Wtf? Floyd is 5 times better than Algerie. Floyd will win 5 rounds so dont say it's a mismatch!

[Evol]

i see where ur coming from but how will manny defend the right hand? he couldnt even defend algeiries, pac may have won that last fight but go look at pac mans technical flaws and be honest with yourselfs go look at his footwork when he was throwing his punches... maybe he fought that way because he ddnt respect algirries power but it wasnt great at all..., i respect your opinion tho but i think after round 4 floyd will beat pac down with counters and skill, floyd will get touched tho and i see a possible flash knockdown for pac but he just does not have the skill to beat floyd for 12 rounds.

he didnt try too to be honest LOL. pac was walking algieri down and was willing to eat algieir's punches. pac had no respect for algieri, i dont think pac will fight the same way against floyd. and why does the floyd fans always make it seem like it will be a shut out in floyd's favor?

when has manny ever been in a fight where he's losing rounds after rounds after rounds? even against marquez pac lost some rounds but would come back and win the rounds after and so fourth. i just cant see floyd dominating pac to where manny wont be able to do anything. i cant see floyd shutting pac down when floyd couldnt do that with lesser skill opponents.

[Evol]

Floyd won those fights, as he has against every southpaw, and forced the opponent to lower their punch output as he has done in every fight he has ever had. Why the assumption Manny's out put won't decline?

Manny's style is never problematic for boxers. The 4 JMM fights make this painfully obvious-Manny can be timed and Manny will get hit because of the position of his hands and body when he throws punches.

Manny and JMM have equal reach-Floyd 5 inches longer.He hits JMM because JMM has to get close to hit him. Floyd, much faster than JMM and a better counter puncher, will be able to strike from a distance.

yeah even after 4 fights, marquez still leave with a busted up face! so much for marquez figuring manny out right? LOL. like i said, even after marquez has "figure" manny out as some floyd fans put it, just look at marquez face after each fight. if thats what u called figuring manny out then im willing to bet floyd is not willing to take that chance LOL.

[The Gambler1981]

You said a lot without really getting to what really matters.

Range.

Where can Manny be successful at? Manny has a shorter range than Floyd, he is shorter with shorter arms so floyd from range can always act first and that give him a huge advantage. It already got brought up that Manny reaches and gets off balance, but not a lot of guys can take advantage of him because he is a great fighter. However Floyd's stock and trade is taking advantage of these very things and Floyd has the right hand to make Manny pay (and build a whole offense around, if Floyd decides to sit on a left hook once the right hand is working Manny could find himself in a world of trouble).

Now if Manny was an inside fight he could press all the way in but Manny is not that. So Manny is going to be stuck looking for a very specific spot while Floyd has an advantage from everywhere else.

So yea it won;t look like the JMM fight because Floyd won't be force to make those sacrifices he will get his without Manny ever having a chance to be in his best range.

[creekrat77]

I'll say it again. If Marcos Maidana can time and counter Floyd's right hand counter then Pac can do it x3 with his straight left

[Evol]

You said a lot without really getting to what really matters.

Range.

Where can Manny be successful at? Manny has a shorter range than Floyd, he is shorter with shorter arms so floyd from range can always act first and that give him a huge advantage. It already got brought up that Manny reaches and gets off balance, but not a lot of guys can take advantage of him because he is a great fighter. However Floyd's stock and trade is taking advantage of these very things and Floyd has the right hand to make Manny pay (and build a whole offense around, if Floyd decides to sit on a left hook once the right hand is working Manny could find himself in a world of trouble).

Now if Manny was an inside fight he could press all the way in but Manny is not that. So Manny is going to be stuck looking for a very specific spot while Floyd has an advantage from everywhere else.

So yea it won;t look like the JMM fight because Floyd won't be force to make those sacrifices he will get his without Manny ever having a chance to be in his best range.

why do u guys act like floyd cant be hit?? did u guys miss the floyd vs maidana fight?? how was maidana able to hit floyd if floyd has a longer reach , etc.????

[Evol]

I'll say it again. If Marcos Maidana can time and counter Floyd's right hand counter then Pac can do it x3 with his straight left

damm beat me to it! LOL!! its crazy these floyd fans act like flloyd cant be touch when in his last fight we all saw floyd getting hit more than once LOL.