Mayweather is better than Marquez, but will do much worst against Pacquaio.

[jas]

In B4 The Ban.

i sense butthurt

[vorgaphe]

Good read. I think if they ever were to fight that Pac's speed and stamina would be too much for Floyd. At the end of the day, Floyd would have to cover up or be willing to take more damage than he's ever taken in his career.

[Thomas_Hearns]

Different styless. JMM is an aggressive counter puncher. And he fought Pacquiao four times. He already memorized his moves.

[1nonlymre]

excellent thread and an excellent thought process. I believe this is why the fight has to happen, both fighters have a lot of questions need to be answered. Can talk to deal with a defensive master like Floyd Mayweather? Can Floyd Mayweather deal with the onslaught that packet will give him? These are the questions that must be answered and original poster put some valid points. Both Mayweather and Marcus are completely different types of counter punchers. And that cannot go without with very little debate. I for one would love to see this fight happen and I know it has to happen for the sake of boxing. I would dare saying that it's almost a 50 50 fight. Great post. Thank you.

[Deevel916]

Marquez actually took a bunch of shots to land his own. People act like JMM did a pot shot session on Manny. You have to get down and dirty withPac to be succesful. Floyd is too prone to trying to stay clean thought a fight in order to be as effective as JMM was.

That's the reason why he doesn't want it with PAC. Not only the southpaw stance, blinding speed, and ability to counter the right hand with his left, and do real damage, but because he knows he has to FIGHT PAC to beat him.

This right here! ^^^

JMM was willing to walk thru fire and took LOTS of punishment in order to get his shots in. Floyd wont do that. He's too defense minded.

Just look at Pac/JMM IV. Although JMM won by KO, he sustained far more damage in that fight than he did against Floyd and Floyd won it easy.

[The Big Dunn]

Technical summary


Mayweather is obviously the superior fighter to Marquez. I don't think anyone should be debating that. What people do need to understand is that Mayweather is a fantastic counter puncher defensive fighter that people mistakenly link to Marquez's own counter punching style. They are totally different and one style have always caused Pacquiao trouble, the other will not.


They are completely different fighters who set up their counters completely differently.

First off, the key for Marquez against Pacquiao has always been his constant lateral movement. Not only does he constantly sway at a low center of gravity while rotating away from Pac's left, but he pivots out of range and changes the angle after landing an attack, or even in the middle of an exchange, to completely confuse Pacquiao and take away his ability to take the initiative with his amazingly swift footwork. He does this so much so that in the second half of the fight, he caught Pacquiao with a left hook pretty much behind the head because of how he was able to laterally shift away from an oncoming Manny.


Mayweather on the other hand is a more conventional "slick" counter-puncher who relies on his control of distance to anticipate and neutralize his opponent. While he's brilliant in reading his opponent and measuring his own punches against their own, he usually does this either going straight backwards or straight forwards, with efficient footwork. He has habituated himself to fighting in straight lines in order to land his favorite punches; lead right hands, pull-counters, jabs to the body, counter or lead left hooks, or counter-right uppercuts when swarmed. But one thing Mayweather almost never shows is the type of lateral movement Marquez shows.


De La Hoya, while still game, had an offensive gameplan that relied a lot on mere feints and swarms of activity to back Floyd up, and he usually did so with no problem. Even after Mayweather adjusted to his rhythm and started winning rounds, he hardly ever looked impressive and was backing up consistently without ever shifting towards a laterally-minded gameplan. Wouldn't that have made things easier for him instead of constantly giving up the center and having to retreat to the ropes to counter before escaping? Someone with the style of Hopkins (as in VS Pavlik), for example, would prefer such tactics, and Floyd seems to prefer seeing his opponent right in front of him, positioning himself right in front.



This comfort zone does not appear to be a preferred strategy for someone who can rotate so quickly and match Floyd speed for speed with plenty of pop behind it.(Manny)

This leads into my second point, which is that Marquez's movement allows him to get Pacquiao on the inside and punish him. As an in-the-pocket counter-puncher, Marquez can duck under and find himself body-to-body with pacquiao and take advantage of his unpolished inside game. Uppercuts, combinations, and even spots of controlled aggression (before pivoting out) are something that he can do because of his relatively similar size to Pacquiao.

Now, while people point to Mayweather's reach giving Pacquiao issues, I don't believe he'll be able to use it to control Pacquiao if he shows his regular movement. Floyd's accurate and reflexive, but his defensive stance by nature anchors his back foot to the canvas, and allows someone as fleet-footed as Pacquiao to change the punching angle and capitalize for an offensive opportunity.

Fighting in straight lines is not the way to beat Pacquiao; you have to take away the punching angle, and I don't think at all that Floyd can circle as well as he can back-pedal.

On top of all of this is tempo. While Marquez was able to control pace from time to time, he was still able to fluidly exchange with Pacquiao and see the angles in order to time the better shots while rolling with Pac's own. Mayweather, as skilled and tough and intuitive as he is, has not shown this quality in abundance. The times he's been hurt actually, have been times he's over-committed to his own punches (Corely, Judah, Mosley). He can adjust brilliantly round-to-round, but as controversial as it may sound, I feel he lacks this sort of intangible fluidity Marquez has in his approach.


Once again Floyd is the superior fighter to Marquez but he lack the particular attributes that Marquez have in the counter punching game that have so enabled Marquez to be Manny's biggest nightmare.

while you make very good points, I'm reminded of something Lou DIbella said regarding the fight-

“Everything Juan Manuel Marquez does well Floyd does five times as well. Marquez didn’t win 30 seconds of his fight against Floyd. Marquez’ style gave Pacquiao fits, explain to me where Pacquiao’s chances lie in beating Mayweather? I don’t think he has any. I think if anything’s clear right now, is that it’s a very bad fight for Manny Pacquiao. It appears to me the people around Pacquiao and Pacquiao may believe that.”

[IMDAZED]

Nice thread. Love analyzing the fight in my head and one thing I've noticed people generally minimize about Mayweather time and time again while analyzing fights is his reach. You do so here, sadly. It's why he doesn't always need lateral movement although it's absolutely in his arsenal if he so chooses. But...I completely disagree with you regarding pivoting. In fact, I'd say Mayweather is a master of not only pivoting, but punching while pivoting. Just ask Ricky Hatton.

[Deevel916]

while you make very good points, I'm reminded of something Lou DIbella said regarding the fight-

“Everything Juan Manuel Marquez does well Floyd does five times as well. Marquez didn’t win 30 seconds of his fight against Floyd. Marquez’ style gave Pacquiao fits, explain to me where Pacquiao’s chances lie in beating Mayweather? I don’t think he has any. I think if anything’s clear right now, is that it’s a very bad fight for Manny Pacquiao. It appears to me the people around Pacquiao and Pacquiao may believe that.”

While this may be true to some extent, there's one thing Floyd doesn't do that plays a big part in why JMM had success against Pac. Taking risks! He knew he would never be able to beat Pac by playing it safe. You have to literally FIGHT Pac in order to have success because his style makes you fight!

[The Big Dunn]

While this may be true to some extent, there's one thing Floyd doesn't do that plays a big part in why JMM had success against Pac. Taking risks! He knew he would never be able to beat Pac by playing it safe. You have to literally FIGHT Pac in order to have success because his style makes you fight!

You don't have to take risks if you don't need to. You don't throw the ball when you are up 14 late in the 4th quarter, you run the clock out. Floyd's reach, unusual for someone his height, allows him to fight from a distance that forces other fighters to take the risks.

JMM has to take risks in order to land, Floyd won't. All that matters is getting the win-something Floyd has shown he is an expert at.

[Deevel916]

You don't have to take risks if you don't need to. You don't throw the ball when you are up 14 late in the 4th quarter, you run the clock out. Floyd's reach, unusual for someone his height, allows him to fight from a distance that forces other fighters to take the risks.

JMM has to take risks in order to land, Floyd won't. All that matters is getting the win-something Floyd has shown he is an expert at.

I just don't see it playing out good for Floyd due to his low output combined with Pac's high output and awkward style. Now I'm not saying Pac will walk thru Floyd because no fighter has been able to do that thus far. What I'm saying is, Floyd will be presented with a style has has yet to see and fighting the way he's fought his last few fights wont favor him in a fight with Pac.

From what I've learned from the Madiana and Augustus fights is that Floyd doesn't fair well with awkward non conventional styles.