New Rivalry? Cuba vs Mexico

[CubanGuyNYC]

And of the many Cubans who defected to the U.S many of whom where athletes (including boxers) were they on lockdown to?

Are there no boxing gyms in Miami? Hell, after 40 + years of communist rule in Cuba and its many defectors all you have to speak of is Joel Cassamayor?

Do Cubans support boxing or not?

Rivalry? According to whom????

I'm not the one that brought up a rivalry.

You say "many defectors," yet there are only about 50 Cuban pros worldwide, not just in the U.S. Yes, they were on lockdown. Practically everyone had to escape.

It's been fifty three years, to be exact. Casamayor was an early defector, but he was virtually a lone warrior. Now there's a handful of Cubans in the pros, yet we have several champions and top fighters: Abril (champ at 135); Gamboa (champ at 126); Rigondeaux (champ at 122 and P4P fighter); Hernandez (champ at cruiser); Lara (top five at 154).

The Cubans that made their lives in the U.S. after Castro took power were more business-oriented. Quite a few became captains of industry and have held positions of political power. In only a few years, a tiny population of Cubans managed to put their recognized stamp on a major U.S. city. There's much more to life than boxing.

[damit305]

Oh yeah in the short term there would be an influx of talented fighters doing very well in the pros, but in the long term the amateur system will probably start falling apart due to less government involvement and they will produce less and less elite fighters.

Your belief in Cuba's amateur system is strong and I don't blame you.

Historically Cuba produced some of its top fighters before the commie regime fell into place. Kid Chocolate, Gavilan, Napoles.

In the long term, they might be better off.

[CubanGuyNYC]

Your belief in Cuba's amateur system is strong and I don't blame you.

Historically Cuba produced some of its top fighters before the commie regime fell into place. Kid Chocolate, Gavilan, Napoles.

In the long term, they might be better off.

This is exactly the opinion I lean towards. At the risk of becoming overly political, communism doesn't work. It breeds complacency and mediocrity. The communists created a system that teaches good athletes good boxing skills, but they suppressed the truly great talents that might've been. The ATGs you mentioned didn't need an army of coaches to make them among the best fighters of all time. The future Cuban ATGs won't either.

[jri9d0]

This is exactly the opinion I lean towards. At the risk of becoming overly political, communism doesn't work. It breeds complacency and mediocrity. The communists created a system that teaches good athletes good boxing skills, but they suppressed the truly great talents that might've been. The ATGs you mentioned didn't need an army of coaches to make them among the best fighters of all time. The future Cuban ATGs won't either.

BUT, until Cubans wake up and realize communism is a primitive form of government and actually take the initiative to reform their politics instead of swimming to Miami and bark from the other side of the fence than we will always be stuck with posters (like yourself) claiming how great Cuba "could've" been.

An ugly reality to a very sad truth.

And for the record, contrary to my blunt posts regarding Cuban fighters and their abilities I actually have the utmost respect for their skills, ring generalship, and their unmatched records in the Olympics and amateurs.

My only gripe is that they never seize the opportunity for greatness in making a lasting mark and impression on the sport but seemingly seem content to utilize an amateur approach when entering the professional ranks. Thus limiting their potential to be GREAT.

Listen, there is a reason why promoters (Arum/Goosen) are less interested in investing/marketing Cuban fighters for some of the already aforementioned reasons. Couple this with the fact that despite past Cuban greats the Cuban community as a whole do not follow the sport in the masses as suppose to other ethnic groups.

But hey, I guess according to you (your words) Cubans have better things to do.

[CubanGuyNYC]

BUT, until Cubans wake up and realize communism is a primitive form of government and actually take the initiative to reform their politics instead of swimming to Miami and bark from the other side of the fence than we will always be stuck with posters (like yourself) claiming how great Cuba "could've" been.
An ugly reality to a very sad truth.

It's a long and complicated topic, well beyond the scope of our discussion.

And for the record, contrary to my blunt posts regarding Cuban fighters and their abilities I actually have the utmost respect for their skills, ring generalship, and their unmatched records in the Olympics and amateurs.
My only gripe is that they never seize the opportunity for greatness in making a lasting mark and impression on the sport but seemingly seem content to utilize an amateur approach when entering the professional ranks. Thus limiting their potential to be GREAT.

For a lot of these guys, it's enough to win and get paid. It may seem strange to us, but to them, legacy is a luxury that other people only talk about. They come from a different world, a different mind-set, forged by the communist system. It is what it is.

Listen, there is a reason why promoters (Arum/Goosen) are less interested in investing/marketing Cuban fighters for some of the already aforementioned reasons. Couple this with the fact that despite past Cuban greats the Cuban community as a whole do not follow the sport in the masses as suppose to other ethnic groups.
But hey, I guess according to you (your words) Cubans have better things to do.

Lots of reasons have been covered on these boards, among them the socioeconomic demographics of Cuban-Americans. I read criticisms on this topic all the time on this site. They're often unrealistic. Rome wasn't built in a day. We can't expect Cubans to build a boxing structure like that of the Mexicans and Puerto Ricans in just a few years. Maybe we never will. Time will tell.

[DannYankee]

BUT, until Cubans wake up and realize communism is a primitive form of government and actually take the initiative to reform their politics instead of swimming to Miami and bark from the other side of the fence than we will always be stuck with posters (like yourself) claiming how great Cuba "could've" been.

An ugly reality to a very sad truth.

And for the record, contrary to my blunt posts regarding Cuban fighters and their abilities I actually have the utmost respect for their skills, ring generalship, and their unmatched records in the Olympics and amateurs.

My only gripe is that they never seize the opportunity for greatness in making a lasting mark and impression on the sport but seemingly seem content to utilize an amateur approach when entering the professional ranks. Thus limiting their potential to be GREAT.

Listen, there is a reason why promoters (Arum/Goosen) are less interested in investing/marketing Cuban fighters for some of the already aforementioned reasons. Couple this with the fact that despite past Cuban greats the Cuban community as a whole do not follow the sport in the masses as suppose to other ethnic groups.

But hey, I guess according to you (your words) Cubans have better things to do.

First of all the Numbers in comparison to any other country of pro boxers are dismally low and yet Cubans are all over boxing right now by some miracle but nobody can say that will continue due to the situation but despite it, Cuba is a boxing amateur super power and is surging in the Pro's. What you don't get is their mentality and let me shine some light on it, for a Cuban Boxer being an Olympian Gold medalist is the pinnacle whatever achievement is offered here to them as a pro (b/s belts etc), pales in comparison to that that's what they were taught from birth. They come here out of necesity if they weren't treated as slave athletes i doubt they would have ever left.

And that's where the lack of ambition in the pro's comes from, they will face whoever they put in front of them and Win most of the time, what wont happen is they wont degrade their dignity just for money which is the only thing they place value as a pro other than the W for the ego. And 9 out of 10 times they wont become punching bags because they place less value in their pro career than their amateur one, especially the really good ones to them it's a job not a circus act to please people. And what good is having a job that you end up a vegetable when you retire? Or have to become a clown to get any recognition? That's the mentality.

Cuba is not Syria or Egypt so what you posted before about communism and rising up and all that crap comes from a place of common ignorance of people that I've seen so many times i'm too tired of explaining it to elaborate. Cuba hasn't been communist for decades now, communism is dead. The one thing you where right about is the ****ty attitude of most Florida Cubans they're attitude towards Cuba is **** even to the point of ostracizing the defector athletes for having won medals for Castro if they are "rumored " to have been friendly with the government and that's the way they see it, but that pure hate is another one that is too large of an issue to explain in one go and has it's reasons as well.

[CubanGuyNYC]

First of all the Numbers in comparison to any other country of pro boxers are dismally low and yet Cubans are all over boxing right now by some miracle but nobody can say that will continue due to the situation but despite it, Cuba is a boxing amateur super power and is surging in the Pro's. What you don't get is their mentality and let me shine some light on it, for a Cuban Boxer being an Olympian Gold medalist is the pinnacle whatever achievement is offered here to them as a pro (b/s belts etc), pales in comparison to that that's what they were taught from birth. They come here out of necesity if they weren't treated as slave athletes i doubt they would have ever left.

And that's where the lack of ambition in the pro's comes from, they will face whoever they put in front of them and Win most of the time, what wont happen is they wont degrade their dignity just for money which is the only thing they place value as a pro other than the W for the ego. And 9 out of 10 times they wont become punching bags because they place less value in their pro career than their amateur one, especially the really good ones to them it's a job not a circus act to please people. And what good is having a job that you end up a vegetable when you retire? Or have to become a clown to get any recognition? That's the mentality.

Of the fifty-odd Cubans in pro boxing, at least five are champions, former champions, or high-level contenders. That's a ridiculously high percentage of success, especially when you consider the fact that some of those Cuban pros are very old or just boxing as a side-gig. There are more, many more, Mexican fighters in certain weight classes than there are Cubans in all of pro boxing.

I think your explanation of an Olympic gold medal holds much truth.

Cuba is not Syria or Egypt so what you posted before about communism and rising up and all that crap comes from a place of common ignorance of people that I've seen so many times i'm too tired of explaining it to elaborate. Cuba hasn't been communist for decades now, communism is dead. The one thing you where right about is the ****ty attitude of most Florida Cubans they're attitude towards Cuba is **** even to the point of ostracizing the defector athletes for having won medals for Castro if they are "rumored " to have been friendly with the government and that's the way they see it, but that pure hate is another one that is too large of an issue to explain in one go and has it's reasons as well.

Make no mistake, Cuba is communist and has been since at least the early sixties. Just because some superficial change has occurred here and there doesn't mean that the main system has been abandoned. Does the government still control most industry? Are doctors and other professionals paid essentially the same as a common laborer? Do they still provide universally free education and medical services? If it looks like a duck, quacks and has feathers, it's a duck.

I will agree, though, that Cuban-Americans, at least the older ones, have held a misguided, self-defeating and stubborn view of Cubans on the island. Some of that can be attributed to the fact that many had their birthrights and earnings taken from them by Castro's government. These bitter feelings have clouded their judgement, as bitter feelings tend to do.

[damit305]

Tonight another strong indicator on the limitations Mexican boxing... Chavez jr completely outboxed by a subliminal fighter in Vera...

... Yesterday I stayed up watching a Telemundo card with some David Carmona vs Garcia... man what a snoozer.!

[LeG00N]

Tonight another strong indicator on the limitations Mexican boxing... Chavez jr completely outboxed by a subliminal fighter in Vera...

... Yesterday I stayed up watching a Telemundo card with some David Carmona vs Garcia... man what a snoozer.!

Wait.... Is Vera Cuban? Or why is this fight relevant to the Cuba vs Mexico thread?

A Mexican looked bad... But where was the Cuban though? Or is the purpose of this post to bash Mexicans....

[damit305]

Wait.... Is Vera Cuban? Or why is this fight relevant to the Cuba vs Mexico thread?

A Mexican looked bad... But where was the Cuban though? Or is the purpose of this post to bash Mexicans....

More so to indicate the quality and worth of fighters such as Lara and Rigondeaux as opposed to the crap we witnessed tonight