What would happen in Wladimir Klitschko would face Ali's opponents NOWADAYS?

[Slowmotion426]

A prime Clay would be DESTROYED by a prime WLAD.

[WladIsTheChamp]

Weight of opponents is not really relevant speed and skill are far more of a factor hence I gave venue as a bigger factor than it is to highlight one dimensional thinking.
A few ATG fighters couldn't punch for toffee Pep and Conn leap to mind. Carnera Willard etc weighed a lot and were tall but only the kindest of historians would call them an ATG.
Punching power is a factor and can cover a few discrepancies in a fighter but without a bit more in your locker it will only get you so far e.g. Shavers, Elmer Ray, Cooney.

Losses read off boxingrec can be misleading without knowing the fighters and many boxers are capable of great fights but consistancy escapes them, **** Tiger would be an example of this.

A lot of fighters have a short prime but within that prime were a match for anyone but at other times in their career could be beaten by fighters with less ability. The Jimmy Bivins of 43 to 45 would give any light heavy in history a fight, before and after those dates not so much.

I guess you would call the following fighter a bum?
Lost 3 of his first four fights, in his 3rd year as a pro he managed 3 draws against a man whose stats for his 1st 21 fights were 10 losses and 6 draws. Lost his title at 28 (supposedly a fighters peak) never to regain it, to a fighter who at that time had 24 losses and finished his career with 65 losses.

That "bum" is Henry Armstrong, look him up, a lot think he was quite good.

A notice you minimise Ali's win over Williams by mentioning he had been shot which is fair point but then give Liston zero credit for beating Williams when he was prime.

And Ibragimov can't fight, I assume you would pick him over Liston or Frazier? The fact him and Chagaev have only lost one fight each is more an indictment of the poor standard of the HW division than any testament to their abilities.

Your facts include the nonsense that Foreman was drugged but after that fact was blown to smithereens you don't bring that up anymore

What makes you think Sultan Ibragimov can't fight? That's the most ignorant statement I have heard. Stellar amateur career, I believe a silver medal in the Olympics, undefeated as a pro until he met Wlad, and he lost to him via UD. What makes you say that he can't fight?

You just said something just to say it but you have evidence to back up your statements, just opinion.

Sultan would beat Liston and Frazier IMO, simply looking at their records, the weight they fough at, everything else.

Chagaev? You obviously know nothing about Chagaev - he defeated the legendary Felix Savon (the Cuban 3-time Olympic gold medalist) in the amateurs. His amatuer pedigree is unbelievable, he went undefeated as pro and only Wlad was able to stop him.

You dimissing the fact that Wlad defeated two previously undefeated world champions in Sultan and Chagaev as simply the state of the division is the most blatant case of bias. I suppose you call Ali's state of the division excellent, considering he was fighting guys 20-30-40 pounds lighter than him who were not even HW, yest thats right, he was beating up on 177 and 180 pounders when he was a solid 206-220. He lost 2 of his last fights (don't tell me he was past it at 39 because that's how old Vitaly is now and Vitaly would never loose to the likes of Trevor Bebrick) and before that he lost to a complete novice in Leon Spinks who had 6/7 fight before meeting him. And Spinks, his record turned out to be 26-17-3, no great record, so no great fighter. Let's not forget the travesty of a fight against Cleveland Williams, who has been out for a year due to a gunshot to his stomach, he had partial atrophy of his left leg along with nerve damage that precluded his full use of it plus he also had 10+ feet of intestine taken out, and one of his internal organs was also taken out. You call that great competition? GTFO!

[WladIsTheChamp]

The difference between me and you is that I base my posts on FACTS (gunshot wound of Williams, weight of opponents, fight after loss etc) while you merely post some nonsense opinions like "Ibragimov can't fight" or "They fought in Germany".

GJC, that was really childish and I usually like your posts.

LOL, exactly, not facts, just opinions, that's all the nostalgic Clay worshippers have.

Besides, if you get a KO, how do the judges matter? Cause Wlad has to leave at the hands of the judges around 14% of the time - Clay, well let's just say he had to have the judges step in 40% of the time and has had several questionable decisions.

[NChristo]

What makes you think Sultan Ibragimov can't fight? That's the most ignorant statement I have heard. Stellar amateur career, I believe a silver medal in the Olympics, undefeated as a pro until he met Wlad, and he lost to him via UD. What makes you say that he can't fight?

You just said something just to say it but you have evidence to back up your statements, just opinion.

Sultan would beat Liston

Stopped reading there, not worth reading on.
Obviously biased towards today's era and after reading your user name I'm surprised I even bothered reading this far into the post.

[GJC]

This is true for the lower divisions, where there is a maximum weight. Thus speed/skill is more important than weight (in the lower divisions).

This is not true for the heavyweight division: Usually the one with the bigger weight wins EXCEPT if the other is far more skilled than the weight difference.

Whilst the old adage a good big un beats a good little un holds, the current HW division is so poor thats we are almost mirroring the great white hope era of Johnson's time when they measured and weighed white men to consider whether they had what it takes. Boxing ability was barely considered and forward came Jess Willard who had minimal boxing ability but was strong and hard to knock out. Roll on little Jack Dempsey end of argument.

Noone talks about ATGs. Noone said that weight makes you an ATG.

So you agree that weight is a minor factor?

And why do you mention Carnera (or in other cases Valuev) as a proof that weight doesn't matter? Carnera/Valuev is the proof that weight DOES matter. They have OK records DESPITE their skills.

They have ok records in poor eras

I thank you for your input, but all of the above is offtopic since this is not a general thread about "What is needed to be an ATG". This is an "Ali's opponents vs Wladimir" thread.

Ali had some poor opponents who I'm sure Wlad would beat easily but he fought more good fighters than any other HW and Wlad along with a lot of other HW champions throughout history would lose to them.

How can a guy who fought 180 fights and lost only 21 be a bum? I would never ever consider him a bum. He might be a bum beater (like Liston) but not a bum.

You missed the point, I was showing you that analysing records is deceptive.
There is a saying in football looks good on paper but is **** on grass.

Liston's best win. But that doesn't lose him the title "cruiser-bum beater". Other than Williams (and cruiser Patterson) there is hardly anything on Liston's record that could be identified as "mentionable".

I've yet to see an opponent of Wlads who I wouldn't favour Liston to slaughter

but since everyone knows that sportsmen get better and better from generation to generation _YOU_ got the burden of proof.

There are great sportsman in any era, just not in todays HW division.

I didn't include Foreman's drugging in my post. That is always mentioned in my sig. I merely clarified that Foreman _is_ Ali's biggest win and yet even this win is rather inconclusive since it was merely a gassing issue in the jungle. That win simply reminds us of Ali's biggest asset: He could out-stamin'ize his opponents.

The fact that you look on this fight as a mere gassing or out staminizing issue means that you should really look elsewhere for a sport to follow.

Add to it that, yes, Foreman was INDEED probably drugged (and I am not claiming that Ali even knew it) then it makes Ali's biggest achievement to not have faced Foreman again.


Blown to smithereens? By whom? Noone can prove that something didn't happen. There will always be shadows above Ali's "Foreman in Forest" win
//krikya360.com/forums/sh...39#post5611639

"Noone can prove that something didn't happen" is a ****** statement, I can't prove that man hasn't landed on Pluto but there is no proof that it has happened. Your proof is Foreman not being able to get his head around how he lost and the ramblings of a penniless alcoholic, or do you have something more?

[johncs08]

not a klitschko hugger but he destroys everyone including frazier and foreman..

[GJC]

What makes you think Sultan Ibragimov can't fight? That's the most ignorant statement I have heard. Stellar amateur career, I believe a silver medal in the Olympics, undefeated as a pro until he met Wlad, and he lost to him via UD. What makes you say that he can't fight?

You just said something just to say it but you have evidence to back up your statements, just opinion.

Sultan would beat Liston and Frazier IMO, simply looking at their records, the weight they fough at, everything else.

Chagaev? You obviously know nothing about Chagaev - he defeated the legendary Felix Savon (the Cuban 3-time Olympic gold medalist) in the amateurs. His amatuer pedigree is unbelievable, he went undefeated as pro and only Wlad was able to stop him.

You dimissing the fact that Wlad defeated two previously undefeated world champions in Sultan and Chagaev as simply the state of the division is the most blatant case of bias. I suppose you call Ali's state of the division excellent, considering he was fighting guys 20-30-40 pounds lighter than him who were not even HW, yest thats right, he was beating up on 177 and 180 pounders when he was a solid 206-220. He lost 2 of his last fights (don't tell me he was past it at 39 because that's how old Vitaly is now and Vitaly would never loose to the likes of Trevor Bebrick) and before that he lost to a complete novice in Leon Spinks who had 6/7 fight before meeting him. And Spinks, his record turned out to be 26-17-3, no great record, so no great fighter. Let's not forget the travesty of a fight against Cleveland Williams, who has been out for a year due to a gunshot to his stomach, he had partial atrophy of his left leg along with nerve damage that precluded his full use of it plus he also had 10+ feet of intestine taken out, and one of his internal organs was also taken out. You call that great competition? GTFO!

I generally only debate with one alt at a time but i'll humour you.

My eyes make me believe that Ibragimov and Chagaev can't fight.

Amateur records are all very well but I think the names Audley Harrison and Pete Rademacher (you'll need to look him up) pretty much end that argument as to its relevance.

Forget age when you learn a little about boxing you'll realise that it is not an exact science. BHOP and Archie Moore (you'll need to look him up) were better fighters in their mid to late 30's than in their 20's. Ali was totally done after the Shavers fight so Berbick, Spinks and Holmes arn't relevant.

Liston would destroy Sultan, Liston was a lot more frightening across the ring than on boxingrec the opposite is true of Ibragimov. Ironically a fast moving cruiser would cause Liston problems, a straight up fighter willing to trade jabs or try and out tough him would be an easy night for him.

[Joeyzagz]

There is a reason why the Heavyweight Division is considered Unlimited after 190-210 lbs. Its because the average 250 lber does not have the same overwhelming advantage being 40+, as a Light-Heavy would against a Featherweight. A human can only get so big before he becomes a major hindrance athletically. Lennox and Wlad are the exception, 95% of their supersized opponents are the rule. There is no need to regulate past 190-210 because the human body regulates itself.

Wladimir is tall/lean, but it comes at the cost of having weak legs, which caused him to fall 3 times against Peter.

Peter is strong/solid, but it comes at the cost of being a stationary target for Vitali to exploit.

Vitali is tall/strong, but it comes at the cost of being highly prone to injury, and made him QUIT against a 210 lb Chris Byrd.

The major problem with knn's argument is that it is far too dependent on weight, and if someone doesnt accept that premise, those selective records he posts mean nothing. Most see Mccline's legal obesity as a hindrance, not an advantage over fighters of yester year. With 10 losses and a KO ratio close to 50%, I dont see how his superior weight has helped him at all.

[knn]

Whilst the old adage a good big un beats a good little un holds, the current HW division is so poor

Lame excuse. The borders opened, Eastern Europeans crashed Americans, Amercians whine about the dire state of the division.

That's it in a nutshell.

So you agree that weight is a minor factor?

Weight is a MAJOR factor.

I ran through several thousand (as far as I remember it was 40000) fights and if you outweigh your opponent then your chances to win are 3:1.

Why else do you think Foreman has so many wins? Because of stellar skills?

Foreman vs Wlad would be one of the seldom cases where Foreman DOES NOT weigh more than his opponent. As opposed to Wlad who is lighter in approx. 50% of his fights thus in Wlad's case it _IS_ skill:

Outweighing stats:
Wlad: 50%
Ali: 75%
Foreman: 90%

There you really see where the skills lie. And judging by what problems Ali had to win some of his matches where he outweighed his opponent it actually does not paint a "skillful picture" of Ali.

You missed the point, I was showing you that analysing records is deceptive.
There is a saying in football looks good on paper but is **** on grass.

Boxing is not ballet. A KO is a KO. If you think "floating like a butterfly" makes a win better than you are free to believe so. For me floating is merely a proof of bad footwork.

There are great sportsman in any era, just not in todays HW division.

I already answered it: Every sport gets better from generation to generation. Thus we can pretty surely assume that you are wrong, as is the majority of (US) fans and (US) experts.

The fact that you look on this fight as a mere gassing or out staminizing issue means that you should really look elsewhere for a sport to follow.

All I am saying is that even this greatest of Ali's wins is doubtful. The friendliest thing you can say about "Geaseos Cassius vs Forest Foreman" is that it's _inconclusive_.

"Noone can prove that something didn't happen" is a ****** statement, I can't prove that man hasn't landed on Pluto but there is no proof that it has happened. Your proof is Foreman not being able to get his head around how he lost and the ramblings of a penniless alcoholic, or do you have something more?

It's enough that Ali's co-trainer said it and that Foreman claimed he was drugged. Moreover I never claimed that it's proven. Just that it's probable.

[GJC]

Lame excuse. The borders opened, Eastern Europeans crashed Americans, Amercians whine about the dire state of the division.

That's it in a nutshell.

I'm English so have no axe to grind, the division is poor at the moment.


Weight is a MAJOR factor.

I ran through several thousand (as far as I remember it was 40000) fights and if you outweigh your opponent then your chances to win are 3:1.

Why else do you think Foreman has so many wins? Because of stellar skills?

You ran through several thousand fights through boxingrec.
Do you know anything of football or soccer? There was a man years ago called Charles Reep who used to do stats to break down football, you should read up on him you have many things in common with him.

Foreman vs Wlad would be one of the seldom cases where Foreman DOES NOT weigh more than his opponent. As opposed to Wlad who is lighter in approx. 50% of his fights thus in Wlad's case it _IS_ skill:

Wlad's opponents lack of skill you mean.
If you lumber in a straight line slowly towards an opponent with a longer reach a la Chaguev then there are few fighters in history that wont keep hitting you. Watch the fights not the paper.

Boxing is not ballet. A KO is a KO.

Boxing isn't simply knocking out your opponent bit more to it than that, when the HW division gets better you'll see that.

All I am saying is that even this greatest of Ali's wins is doubtful. The friendliest thing you can say about "Geaseos Cassius vs Forest Foreman" is that it's _inconclusive_.

There is more circumstantial proof that all of the Klit brothers wins are doubtful.
Vitali is an admitted steroid user Wlad trains with his brother, cheaters are always ahead of the testers. Leopards don't chage their spots.

It's enough that Ali's co-trainer said it and that Foreman claimed he was drugged. Moreover I never claimed that it's proven. Just that it's probable.

Foreman has made some lets be kind and say eccentric statements down the years and has blown hot and cold with excuses about that fight for 35 years.
Budini Brown carried a bucket and leached off Ali he wasn't the co-trainer.
An known exagerating alcoholic with no means of support will say anything to earn a dollar. As I said your proof was decimated last time you came up with this nonsense I assumed as you didn't withdraw the allegation you must have more "proof"?