If "quitting" is OK, then why do we value guys like Gatti, Frazier, Corrales....??

[QUISQUEYA]

Firemen are trained not to do such acts if the situation is too dangerous so the counter point you're trying to make fails.

As I have said, boxing is a sport. If it doesn't satisfy your crave for blood that's your problem. I have no problem with a fighter stopping when he feels he can't give any more, I actually prefer that as I don't actually like watching fights where someone is pummelled until they get KOed.

So, the situation was too dangerous for Ortiz last night? And he knew that from all the wars that he has been in? Or from the minute and a half that he fought after he gassed out?

You, my friend, lack intelligence. My favourite fighters are in the Whitaker/mayweather mold. My favourite fighter of the past decade was joel casamayor. There's no bloodlust here.

...but i can see when a Mexican quit.

"I'm too young to get beat up like this"

[MACAQUEINBLACK]

Those things are not free. That persona that Ortiz and HBO collaborated in selling?...it comes with a price.

Then maybe we should all just agree that Ortiz is a faulty product of somewhat incongruous advertising and needs rebranding.

[sigrab]

I get your point. But just because we praise those fighters that do that, doesn't mean we have to condemn the fighters that don't.

Usually, the higher the expectations, the bigger the backlash if those expectations are not met. This just appears to be a condemnation because of the amount of publicity it is getting since a ton of ppl here have been touting this Vicious kid to be the "Next big thing." As you could imagine for someone like that, the way he went out did not bode well for a lot of ppl believing and especially to those who thought he was all hype. Laws of gravity. The "bigger" they are, the harder they fall regardless if it was all hype or not. If this was a no name boxer in South Korea who quit after a semi-hard body punch seconds into his fight, do you think we'd all be taking about him? So you just have to accept the condemnation since it is part of the territory and totally not out of context for any boxer that aspires to be regarded as a great fighter. Now, if he comes out and announce that he is not really aspiring to be a great fighter and that he is just in it for the money then maybe he takes a free pass. Until that time, everything coming his way is fair game.

[QUISQUEYA]

Then maybe we should all just agree that Ortiz is a faulty product of somewhat incongruous advertising and needs rebranding.

And part of my anger is at my own ******ity for buying into it.

Just like people bought into that Hatton was actually a skilled fighter.

[joe strong]

gatti,corrales,ward were all marginally skilled but their hearts were amazing .add Holyfield as well.these guys sellout arenas for a reason.marsuez/vazquez trilogy.today guys are not as tough.the younger generation today don't work anywhere near as hard.they only take & never want to give.

[FeFist]

So, the situation was too dangerous for Ortiz last night? And he knew that from all the wars that he has been in? Or from the minute and a half that he fought after he gassed out?

Any boxing match is dangerous. The only person who can say whether it was too dangerous is the person in the ring seeing as he knows his body better than any body else. He by the looks of things thought it was too dangerous so I would have to say it was.

He's the one putting his career on the line, if he can't take any more he can't take any more. Who the hell are you to say he should go on further?

You, my friend, lack intelligence. My favourite fighters are in the Whitaker/mayweather mold. My favourite fighter of the past decade was joel casamayor. There's no bloodlust here.

Who your favourite fighters are do not change the words coming from you. The fact that you wanted a man to continue when he felt he could give no more shows a crave for blood. Why do you want to see someone continue to fight when they feel that they can't anymore do you not feel that that is sadistic?

...but i can see when a Mexican quit.

"I'm too young to get beat up like this"

I can see when someone things? ''If I continue this way, I'm going to shave years off of my career'' which I agree with. If he continued the fight, became punch drunk and unable to box again what would you be saying.

''Props to Ortiz he showed heart'' Only your words of sympathy and praise won't pay his medical bills and won't support his family.

[OnePunch]

gatti,corrales,ward were all marginally skilled but their hearts were amazing .add Holyfield as well.these guys sellout arenas for a reason.marsuez/vazquez trilogy.today guys are not as tough.the younger generation today don't work anywhere near as hard.they only take & never want to give.

Thats not entirely true. Look at the beating Paulie took from Cotto, and he didnt quit. Look at the beating Diaz took from Nate, and he never quit. And theres a hundred more examples we could list. The bottom line is that some guys have "it", and some dont. Ortiz quit the first time the going got tough. Unfortunately, that says alot about his heart and fortitude for boxing. He "talks the talk" when he is getting spoon fed soft opponents, but refuses to "walk the walk" when faced with some adversity. People can spin it however they want. GBP is already spinning it, saying that Ortiz wanted to continue but the doc stopped the fight. But we all know what we saw. We saw Ortiz shake his head "no" at the ref, and walk to the corner. We SAW it with our own eyes.

And for those that defend it, and say "he could have died" and blah blah blah, well this is professional prizefighting, not checkers. With great reward comes great risk. And unless Ortiz has a PHD in Neurology, then I cant see how he could have determined that he was somehow going to incur life-threatening injuries had he continued.

Face the facts. It wasnt about "life threatening injuries". He knew he was going to get his ass kicked, and he quit. It's nothing new. It's what happens with most bullies.

[shadeyfizzle]

I see somebody failed PHI 101.

A very basic tenet is that if A is good, then the opposite of A is bad.

While i agree with your original statement about Gatti, Frazier, etc......

Critical thinking basics state your argument of if A is good then the opposite of A is bad is what's called a "false dillema" the eart is filled with endless possibilies and never as simple "this or that"

[sigrab]

Any boxing match is dangerous. The only person who can say whether it was too dangerous is the person in the ring seeing as he knows his body better than any body else. He by the looks of things thought it was too dangerous so I would have to say it was.

He's the one putting his career on the line, if he can't take any more he can't take any more. Who the hell are you to say he should go on further?


Who your favourite fighters are do not change the words coming from you. The fact that you wanted a man to continue when he felt he could give no more shows a crave for blood. Why do you want to see someone continue to fight when they feel that they can't anymore do you not feel that that is sadistic?



I can see when someone things? ''If I continue this way, I'm going to shave years off of my career'' which I agree with. If he continued the fight, became punch drunk and unable to box again what would you be saying.

''Props to Ortiz he showed heart'' Only your words of sympathy and praise won't pay his medical bills and won't support his family.

You and Q are quite decent posters and are into a very interesting argument here. However, I have to side with Q on this one just for the fact that we are in a boxing forum. And yes, in boxing forums, boxing afficionados tend to be passionate about their desire to see their boxers show some grit much more than Vic showed last night. I know that you already stated that he is the only one who would know whether he had enough or not. Honestly, I could not remember any other high profile boxer in recent memory who quit in that fashion with no obvious signs of punishment being delivered by the other guy at the time of the stoppage. You could actually make the argument that if you put any other fighter in that same position he was in last night, these other fighters would have fought on. They may have eventually lost, but the point is, they would have atleast given it some more. And that is where the criticism is coming from. I don't think people were expecting him to die in the ring, but he just did not show enough heart in the end. That being said, If we were in a Life or Martha Stewart forum, I would have sided with you on this one. Peace.

[Slimey Limey]

When did Gatti and Corrales quit?