Who would you say impacated boxing more Dempsey or Jack Johnson?

[edgarg]

- -They were so sordid you offered to mail to my in box.

The 2-3 x Rump ran for minor office it was as a ********. Not surprised at the early Rep years but had no idea he'd switched back.

As an Irish born Canadian, why do you bother studying US elections? Seems pointless to me.

Queensbury..How is it that from being a friendly amiable poster .swapping facts and info, you've become what could be called a closed eyes and ears antagonist.??

Of course you don't know me or anything about my high standards of truth..and especially that I stick to facts. That when I speculate I say it's "Just my opinion". Never mind, let this be the last post between us. I don't wish to carry on the exchange, with you completely ignoring what I SAY whilst doubling down, and repeating your erroneous assumptions.

I repeat, for the last time, that I was NOT offering to send you anything in the least SORDID. This is insulting, but I will brush away, as this is my last post to you. They were documented facts of ACHIEVEMENTS benefiting the American People, by *****, (that you always refer to him as "Rump" shows more about you than you are aware). The reason I preferred to send to your "inbox" is because I did not wish to open the discussion on this site to all, and others like you-and worse. which for me was a once-and-finished matter. It all evolved from your sneer at ***** pardoning Jack Johnson without hesitation, and being sure that it was only to grease some voters' backs.

It may seem"pointless" to YOU, .because YOU are not ME. Since the US election is next door to me, and of vital world importance, and I'm neither deaf, dumb not ******, why should I not have some interest in it. I see YOU do, but not a pleasant interest. You hate someone you don't even know, whilst benefiting from his actions.

And, why you assume that I'm and Irish-Canadian I don't know. I am Irish, and never became a Canadian citizen, as I was the only one here, and I wanted to stand with my family, and not outside it.

So goodbye, and I hope that your acid stomach won't give you ulcers. You certainly surprised me.

[edgarg]

Doing our part in our own way, visa vis, keeping our yard clean, so to speak... In your case, being approachable to individuals who most often were avoided at all costs... It makes a difference. It just seems at times that the difference it makes is not significant. I guess I would attribute that to all of us having to walk our own path... And when we see a person with a tough road/path to walk, we see them/their path in it's entirety. We don't see how "having a conversation in a music shop" really makes much of a difference, to a person with many chronic problems...

Yet put oneself in that person's position and it might look different: that conversation might mean a lot. That person may look at it as a real important event. In my case, I try to do for others with that in mind, namely that a little help at key moments might make a difference. Giving twenty dollars to a neighborhood friend who looks after a family when it means keeping the lights on... I mean it is only twenty bucks, but having utilities in the winter? means a lot.

You have the right ideas friend. AND understanding.

[edgarg]

This.


Dempsey changed Boxing tremendously. Having wrapped, secured hands permits harder and busier punching. From here he was able to modify his stance to one less natural, but better for generating punching power and overwhelming offense.

I remember how Tank Abbot changed MMA when he arrived with gloves. He wasn't a particularly accomplished Wrestler, and I am not sure if he was ever a licensed amateur Boxer... I think he just liked to **** around in a Boxing gym like most of us. He was well past his physical prime and in horrible, horrible physical condition, despite being fairly fit. Still, he became a feared puncher because... well, he was the only guy that punched. With any confidence and commitment that is. Then Vitor Belfort arrived. Remember him? He had a mostly invented Jujitsu pedigree and wasn't even an accomplished Boxer, but he was destroying everyone because he was also comfortable letting his hands go.

Obviously Tank and Belfort had sufficient grappling ability that they could rely on their Boxing experience, however limited. While much better strikers couldn't even hope to utilize to utilize their skills because of a lack of grappling experience. But these guys had protected hands, so they weren't the only ones who knew how to punch, they were also the only ones who could throw punches without the risk of sustaining serious injury. Needless to say, the use of of wearing gloves and wrapping hands has taken off.

Hands happen to be effective for punching, but that's not really what they are made for. The forehead, elbows, knees and shins are all far less likely to be injured when used to generate damaging force - they're just less accurate. Dempsey's style was perfectly fitted for an era when Boxing had mostly culled the use of anything other than fists. Now Boxers really were Boxers first, not fighters who happened to be Boxing. Elbows, headbutts, grappling... most of this had been mostly cleaned up from Boxing.

If you look at fighters in MMA today they don't stand at all like modern Boxers not simply to prevent being takendown, but because the modern Boxing stance (customized for straight hard punching) is completely ineffectual in a real fight. You don't really need to be a very good striker at all to knock out a great Boxer, because there are simply tools better for winning fights than throwing really hard, fast straight punches. And I say that with full acknowledgement that hard, accurate punching is still the best way to end a fight in MMA.


I know that's a bit of a rant, and all facts YOU already know. But I think it perfectly illustrates the reality of your comment.

Unless folks can come forward with an example of the tape that DeForrest used, I don't give the argument much merit. It doesn't any meaningful rule was broken. And ultimately, we all know that it wasn't cuts that stopped Willard, and that the structural damage to Willard's face inflicted by Dempsey's punches had been grossly exaggerated. Willard lost because he was out of shape and Dempsey had insane punching power, handspeed and volume. It was witnessed in other fights where no allegations of tampering have ever been made.

If we wanna talk about smelling salts saving Ali against Cooper, OK. That's a conversation worth our time. But trying to make anything out of DeForrest's latter recollections, and failure to properly detail his comment, is simply a cry for attention.

Rusti (are you a trombone player by any chance). You've mentioned something in passing that has been completely overlooked, in the urban legend of "The iron bar-or plaster-of-Paris_in Dempsey's gloves, both completely debunked. They remind me of the mythical tale of Johnson brushing Ketchell's teeth off his gloves, when he only lightly passed his hand over the other, because he's been on the floor and maybe got a slight strain from landing. Who knows , I'm just speculating, But a FACT is certain. Willis Britt, Ketchell's manager specifically denied that there were any teeth knocked out. He said the story arose from the fact that he had a tooth encased in a gold mount on his watch chain.

Now to Jess Willard and the "damage". There is a newspaper, front page picture of Willard, the DAY after the fight, taken at noon, in which he is sitting at the wheel, smiling happily, and chatting with the reporters. His wife is sitting beside him in their open touring car, and the back seat of loaded with suitcases. He is giving interviews to a crowd of reporters just before he sets out on the 5-600 mile drive home.

There is absolutely NO sign of any damage such as the reports said. I'm not sure after all this time since I saw the picture, but he may have had a small strip of sticking plaster over his right eye.

P.S. An old sparring partner of Tommy Burns who was a friend of my uncle, occasionally came down to our club to watch, and one time gave us a present of old boxing items. I remember a few ropes, couple of pairs of 5 oz gloves, a leather head protector, and 2 leather lower body shields. The gloves, similar to those Johnson wore, were just little sacks-or pockets- loosely filled with horsehair. There is NO WAY a tooth, or indeed anything, could ever have stuck to such a sagging loosely filled glove.

[The Old LefHook]

The legacies of the original black Lucifer and the delayed Great White Hope will be forever linked.

[QueensburyRules]

Queensbury..How is it that from being a friendly amiable poster .swapping facts and info, you've become what could be called a closed eyes and ears antagonist.??

Of course you don't know me or anything about my high standards of truth..and especially that I stick to facts. That when I speculate I say it's "Just my opinion". Never mind, let this be the last post between us. I don't wish to carry on the exchange, with you completely ignoring what I SAY whilst doubling down, and repeating your erroneous assumptions.

I repeat, for the last time, that I was NOT offering to send you anything in the least SORDID. This is insulting, but I will brush away, as this is my last post to you. They were documented facts of ACHIEVEMENTS benefiting the American People, by *****, (that you always refer to him as "Rump" shows more about you than you are aware). The reason I preferred to send to your "inbox" is because I did not wish to open the discussion on this site to all, and others like you-and worse. which for me was a once-and-finished matter. It all evolved from your sneer at ***** pardoning Jack Johnson without hesitation, and being sure that it was only to grease some voters' backs.

It may seem"pointless" to YOU, .because YOU are not ME. Since the US election is next door to me, and of vital world importance, and I'm neither deaf, dumb not ******, why should I not have some interest in it. I see YOU do, but not a pleasant interest. You hate someone you don't even know, whilst benefiting from his actions.

And, why you assume that I'm and Irish-Canadian I don't know. I am Irish, and never became a Canadian citizen, as I was the only one here, and I wanted to stand with my family, and not outside it.

So goodbye, and I hope that your acid stomach won't give you ulcers. You certainly surprised me.

- -My mention of Rump makes y a bit teechy, eh?

I assumed sordid because you wanted to keep the details private, none of which I was interested in any more than I Ol'SloCreepy Joe as his foil.

Pardon Moi for thinking you as being politically oriented would've taken the Canadian oath of citizenship. Do you even vote in Irish elections?

What about the UK Brexit dispute over a hard border with Northern Ireland?

When is Tibet language going to be allowed in their current forced subservience to China.

Do you drive a Tesla and if not, why not?

When was the last time you adopted an endangered abused Pitbull?

Vegan or vegetarian?

Pollyanna or Miss Piggy?

Harry Potter or Starwars?

Tomaeto or Tomahto?

[billeau2]

Rusti (are you a trombone player by any chance). You've mentioned something in passing that has been completely overlooked, in the urban legend of "The iron bar-or plaster-of-Paris_in Dempsey's gloves, both completely debunked. They remind me of the mythical tale of Johnson brushing Ketchell's teeth off his gloves, when he only lightly passed his hand over the other, because he's been on the floor and maybe got a slight strain from landing. Who knows , I'm just speculating, But a FACT is certain. Willis Britt, Ketchell's manager specifically denied that there were any teeth knocked out. He said the story arose from the fact that he had a tooth encased in a gold mount on his watch chain.

Now to Jess Willard and the "damage". There is a newspaper, front page picture of Willard, the DAY after the fight, taken at noon, in which he is sitting at the wheel, smiling happily, and chatting with the reporters. His wife is sitting beside him in their open touring car, and the back seat of loaded with suitcases. He is giving interviews to a crowd of reporters just before he sets out on the 5-600 mile drive home.

There is absolutely NO sign of any damage such as the reports said. I'm not sure after all this time since I saw the picture, but he may have had a small strip of sticking plaster over his right eye.

P.S. An old sparring partner of Tommy Burns who was a friend of my uncle, occasionally came down to our club to watch, and one time gave us a present of old boxing items. I remember a few ropes, couple of pairs of 5 oz gloves, a leather head protector, and 2 leather lower body shields. The gloves, similar to those Johnson wore, were just little sacks-or pockets- loosely filled with horsehair. There is NO WAY a tooth, or indeed anything, could ever have stuck to such a sagging loosely filled glove.

When this whole thing first came up I did a rather thorough search for what types of tape were around back in the day. It was actually very interesting. I read the Sear's catalogue among other such things. It appeared as though there was an electric tape, one which we can still buy, but not so much... based on a cloth type texture. Furthermore, this was also called "bicycle tape" and... even as a kid in the sixties we would wrap broom handles with it for stick ball.

Plaster in general would crumble...it would take a lot to wrap hands in such a manner, though fighters have found a way to load the hands. But this was usually over the course of a fight.

The other fact that I considered pertinent is the obsession fighters had with their hands... Not because they wanted iron hands, but, to break a hand in match would be a handicap that could not be overcome. To this end fighters would use things like gas, linseed oil, etc... On this point I see certain things that Travesty, among others, noted: It would not suprise me if fighters wrapped the hands, even put something on the hands, that could harden. The problem for me was finding out what that thing would be.

I also think there has been some Dempsey revisionism. But its worth noting that most trainers who had been around from Johnson, some all the way up to Ali, felt that Dempsey was the greatest heavyweight of all time. Also, Dempsey knew his craft, as evidenced by his book on punching.

Also, sometimes things were attributed to a fighter that were nonsense. Take Kid Mccoy, who threw a screw punch. the pronation on that blow, as felt first hand by A famous British trainer in the late 1800's, caused the teeth to shake, the face to cut up a bit... no wraps needed. Does this mean Kid McCoy did not use hand wrappings of a sort? I don't know.

[edgarg]

- -My mention of Rump makes y a bit teechy, eh?

I assumed sordid because you wanted to keep the details private, none of which I was interested in any more than I Ol'SloCreepy Joe as his foil.

Pardon Moi for thinking you as being politically oriented would've taken the Canadian oath of citizenship. Do you even vote in Irish elections?

What about the UK Brexit dispute over a hard border with Northern Ireland?

When is Tibet language going to be allowed in their current forced subservience to China.

Do you drive a Tesla and if not, why not?

When was the last time you adopted an endangered abused Pitbull?

Vegan or vegetarian?

Pollyanna or Miss Piggy?

Harry Potter or Starwars?

Tomaeto or Tomahto?

This is the LAST time.

1) No it makes you seem "touched"...
2) You should not make an assumption without particularizing
that IT IS only an assumption.especially about anything I
say.
3) No I never voted in an Irish Election either. Their politics
were as crooked as corkscrews..
4) I know nothing about the Northern Ireland Brexit matter. I
DO know that the Northern Unionists would rather take up
arms and fight, rather than be separated from the U.K/
5) I don't know, having never known the Chinese hierarchy.
6) I don't drive a Tesla, why should I. On my departure to live
in Panama for a few years, I gave my last car a Buick Park
Avenue, with synthetic rear roof covering, the very best
car I ever owned. Luxury personified-to my daughter. Even had silver flower vases at the back corners, and had a cigarette lighter at every door. It would tell me when my seat belt was not fastened..and much more. On the highway it did 32 miles per gallon.
7) About 250 years ago.
8) Vegetarian -for over 50 years, don't smoke, nor drink.
9) Your post is nearly all nonsense I know, but there should be a limit.
10)Neither, rubbishy childish nonsense, to watch depraved and dissolute people cavorting around in front of cameras often just inches or feet away. I leave that enjoyment for such as you.
11)Tomato; although I know what you mean, and even recall when that silly song came out, spelling correctly-if you can- is more important.

Now let me ask YOU an equally important question.. "what did you SAY a week and a half before the second Battle of Bull Run, at 3 o'clock on that Wednesday afternoon, and STEPPED IN IT". Considering the amount of "bull" you throw around you'd have to know THAT answer..

Farewell , Good -Bye, Au Revoir, Dasvidaniya, Shalom Shalom, Slean Leat, Kali-Shu.To Blazes With You..(sorry, i can't recall which country uses that last way of departing but it has always been effective-until now).

[QueensburyRules]

- -Jack won a large settlement vs Sports Illustrated when they ******ly published Kearns' last death rattle on this earth.

Weensy just a remake of a long line of slimy n'er do wells since.

[QueensburyRules]

This is the LAST time.

1) No it makes you seem "touched"...
2) You should not make an assumption without particularizing
that IT IS only an assumption.especially about anything I
say.
3) No I never voted in an Irish Election either. Their politics
were as crooked as corkscrews..
4) I know nothing about the Northern Ireland Brexit matter. I
DO know that the Northern Unionists would rather take up
arms and fight, rather than be separated from the U.K/
5) I don't know, having never known the Chinese hierarchy.
6) I don't drive a Tesla, why should I. On my departure to live
in Panama for a few years, I gave my last car a Buick Park
Avenue, with synthetic rear roof covering, the very best
car I ever owned. Luxury personified. Even had silver
flower vases at the back corners, and had a cigarette
lighter at every door. It would tell me when my seat belt
was not fastened..and much more. On the highway it did
32 miles per gallon.
7) About 250 years ago.
8) Vegetarian -for over 50 years, don't smoke, nor drink.
9) Your post is nearly all nonsense I know, but there should
be a limit.
10)Neither, rubbishy childish nonsense, to watch people
cavorting around in front of cameras often just inches of
feet away. I leave that enjoyment for such as you.
11)Tomato; although I know what you mean, and even recall
when that silly song came out, spelling correctly-if you
can- is more important.

Now let me ask YOU an equally important question.. "what did you SAY a week and a half before the second Battle of Bull Run, at 3 o'clock on that Wednesday afternoon, and STEPPED IN IT". Considering the amount of "bull" you throw around you'd have to know THAT answer..

Farewell , Good -Bye, Au Revoir, Dasvidaniya, Shalom Shalom, Slean Leat, Kali-Shu.To Blazes With You..(sorry, i can't recall which country uses that last way of departing but it has always been effective-until now).

- -Adios and sayonara with the wind at your back in interesting times...

[edgarg]

When this whole thing first came up I did a rather thorough search for what types of tape were around back in the day. It was actually very interesting. I read the Sear's catalogue among other such things. It appeared as though there was an electric tape, one which we can still buy, but not so much... based on a cloth type texture. Furthermore, this was also called "bicycle tape" and... even as a kid in the sixties we would wrap broom handles with it for stick ball.

Plaster in general would crumble...it would take a lot to wrap hands in such a manner, though fighters have found a way to load the hands. But this was usually over the course of a fight.

The other fact that I considered pertinent is the obsession fighters had with their hands... Not because they wanted iron hands, but, to break a hand in match would be a handicap that could not be overcome. To this end fighters would use things like gas, linseed oil, etc... On this point I see certain things that Travesty, among others, noted: It would not suprise me if fighters wrapped the hands, even put something on the hands, that could harden. The problem for me was finding out what that thing would be.

I also think there has been some Dempsey revisionism. But its worth noting that most trainers who had been around from Johnson, some all the way up to Ali, felt that Dempsey was the greatest heavyweight of all time. Also, Dempsey knew his craft, as evidenced by his book on punching.

Also, sometimes things were attributed to a fighter that were nonsense. Take Kid Mccoy, who threw a screw punch. the pronation on that blow, as felt first hand by A famous British trainer in the late 1800's, caused the teeth to shake, the face to cut up a bit... no wraps needed. Does this mean Kid McCoy did not use hand wrappings of a sort? I don't know.

Very interesting info and points well taken. That thing about boxers hands...so true. Their hands were most important, they earned their living with them. In bare knuckle days they used to steep their hands in brine to toughen them up. Also their faces. I don't know if it did anything for the bones, but certainly did for the skin.

As for your remark about trainers and Dempsey being the best. My information, seen and read very many times is that the old timers always said that Johnson was the best, that he could do things that no other fighter could, and most or all fighters have forgotten to do nowadays. "Mr. Boxing", Nat Fleischer the original Owner and Publisher of Ring, said in 1972 , not long before he died,(and I suppose every year before that) who had seen and reported from the ringside, every top fighter, from Jeffries to Ali.said that Jack Johnson surpassed them all.

***A side note..In WW1 the soldiers had a special name for a huge shell with exploded with very loud noise and lots of black smoke. The called it a"Jack Johnson"..***

A comment from "Chappie" Blackburn, who, was Joe Louis' trainer, who taught him everything and was a top lightweight and welterweight friend and contemporary of Johnson, told Louis that "Johnson would have beaten you very badly, he had a habit of, just as his opponent was setting himself to punch, he'd reach out and "touch you in the bicep, so that you couldn't get your punch off. He had lots of tricks like that, which you don't see anymore"..

Billeau, with your research expertise I'm sure you could find that and the other quotes I've just posted. Just so that I'm not making up or repeating a made up yarn. Too many do just that.

Do you play the trombone, or has the name a different connotation. Excuse my asking, I just have a musical interest, and in fact own a trombone, although a lousy player; played the cornet New Orleans style, (but mostly drums, and could play 2nd horn at the same time, a la the famous King Oliver 2 horn lineup-sort of).