who could stop tyson back in the day?

[The Noose]

If true, Ali should know full well of the entire situation and how sports/life works. Then again, maybe it was him just being fed up with being asked the question all the time and wanted people to get off his back.

Sounds to me like Ali was joking around wen he said that.

[Abe Attell]

Abe,

You are viewing the fight purely as a physical contest. Tyson's weakness was always his lack of confidence and lack of "bottom" (call it grit, character, whatever). He just couldn't hold it together for very long when things weren't going his way. So while Tyson did have a very good left hook, he was not Henry Cooper, Joe Frazier, or a healthy Floyd Patterson in terms of what he had going on between his ears.

It is no myth that Tyson was a mentally flawed fighter. This is clear to anyone with a bit of objectivity. Great and very technical aggressive fighter, right up there with Dempsey in that respect, but he was mentally the most fragile of any of the names offered when the subject of great heavyweights comes up.

Ali would have him beaten before the fight.

Mike was mentally flawed, I agree, but when people argue about Tyson, since it is "fantasy" fights (we put both fighters in their prime), we are talking about a mentally tough Tyson because he had Kevin Rooney, who pushed Mike forward. Rooney was there to help him get through it, just as Cus D'amato was helping Tyson build up.
Tyson's confidence was incredibly high when he was under the Catskill/D'amato/Rooney way. When Mike was trained/prepared properly, both mentally and physically, the guy was blazing with confidence.
Especially with D'amato, Tyson wouldn't have been psyched out by Ali. D'amato called out Ali all the time in their conversations. Ali only acted like a nut, I think Cus probably was, but in a more crazy-smart way.


Rooney said Cus was always there to build Tyson up, but it takes time to have a finished product:
Cus said, first you slowly break down a person of their old ways, wiping the past **** that happened to him, and then slowly build him back up through repetition, hard work, and trust.
Tyson was not Cus's finished product because Cus died to soon. Tyson himself said Cus had more to teach him...although Tyson does admit that Cus taught him enough to get through everything, but he did not listen to the teachings after Cus died. It was probably due to rebellion and Tyson's need to have somebody constantly remind him what to do.
Just remember, Joes Torress, and Floyd Patterson were both street kids who were broken down and built back up, but the difference is Cus had the full time to do it. Just look at how those two came out, I don't see how Cus couldn't have done the same if he lived for another 5 years or so.

To be a "Man", you have to learn how to be one, which usually comes from somebody teaching you at a young age until you are ready to go on your own.

Tyson had pressure on him from a very young age, and I am not even talking about the pressure that would come from being 20 years old and being "THE CHAMPION", which meant something at that time because boxing/world were starving for a "STAR."

That is why I say you have to look at the whole situation: you look at his childhood (which others have gone through as well and came out on top so this cannot be a full excuse), and then the deaths of his Mother, D'amato, and Jimmy Jacobs.

Tyson himself was probably as paranoid as Cus was, since Mike came from the streets (which Cus did as well), and was later taught by Cus.

Boxing is a dirty business.

In the documentary series, I put up in the forum, in one part Tyson says that he does not like being in front of the camera and a woman who grew up with him says the same. Not sure if it was Tyson's way of manipulating the media/audience to get them to feel sorry for him or give him an excuse for later, but it might have some merit
All that said, Mike should have known better and stuck with Rooney and Cayton. I am just not sure Mike had any time to breathe.

.

[Abe Attell]

One more thing, LOL, even after he left Rooney, after his loss to Douglas, and before prison, when he fought Ruddock, he was stunned at one point, but his first reaction was to waive Ruddock in and he fought back, then held on to close the round...You could see in this fight that Tyson was different in his corner, it looked like he knew he didn't have much there to help him out and didn't want to be there.

Could it be, that all men are only as strong as their team?

Even in individual sports, most, if not all, have coaches/teamates that help them out.

Tyson is no Alexander the Great, but even Alexander knew he wasn't as strong without his Macedonian army.

Ali is mentally tougher though, to get back to the argument. Tyson never seemed to be one to come up with strategy, like Ali did.


I still haven't gone back to see which documentary, and who said it, but this quote was good:
"Tyson is only as good as the program you put into him"

[MrSinister]

It's impossible to know for curtain who can beat who in boxing. Sometimes a weaker fighter beats a better with a lucky punch or by being more motivated for that particular fight. But generally I consider Tyson to be one of the hardest opponents to beat during his prime (87-88). But I do think its possible for a fighter with the right qualities(long arms,good footwork,great chin,fast hands,ability to move and punch effectively on the move) to beat him. Tyson actually fought one figher in his prime who (suprisingly) had these qualities (Tony Tucker) but still managed to win, maybe he would have lost if Tucker hadnt broken his hand ,we will never know but it wasnt in anyway a missmatch as long as Tucker stayed healthy.


Ali(pre exile) 50% chans of beating Tyson ,Ali had all the qualities needed to beat Tyson but I don't think he would have knocked him out(or thatTyson would have knocked Ali out for that matter.

Larry Holmes 40% chans of beating Tyson. Holmes also had the speed ,timing and footwork to deal with Tyson.

Lennox Lewis 35% chance of winning.

Ali (post exile) 25% chans.Ali in the 70s was simply to slow for Tyson, but u never know.


Foreman 25% chans of beating Tyson. This fight would have ended in a knockout one way or another. Most possible outcome is that Foreman would have missed all his punches but he would still get hit by Tyson. On the other hand IF Foreman could catch Tyson with his punches (very unlikely he would) Tyson wouldn't last more then 2-3 rounds.

Joe Louis 20% chans, might have enough talent but since I consider that boxing have developed to much since the 40's I think he would have lost.


Frazier 10% chans of beating Tyson. This would have been a missmatch..Fraziers aggressive style simple wouldnt work. I don't think Frazier would have lasted even a round.

Evander Holyfield 10% chance, Blown up cruiserweight.. I find Holyfield overrated. Think he would come out short against most heavy punchers.

Rocky Marciano 5% chance of beating Tyson, to small and to light.. total missmatch.

[Southpaw Stinger]

It's impossible to know for curtain who can beat who in boxing. Sometimes a weaker fighter beats a better with a lucky punch or by being more motivated for that particular fight. But generally I consider Tyson to be one of the hardest opponents to beat during his prime (87-88). But I do think its possible for a fighter with the right qualities(long arms,good footwork,great chin,fast hands,ability to move and punch effectively on the move) to beat him. Tyson actually fought one figher in his prime who (suprisingly) had these qualities (Tony Tucker) but still managed to win, maybe he would have lost if Tucker hadnt broken his hand ,we will never know but it wasnt in anyway a missmatch as long as Tucker stayed healthy.


Ali(pre exile) 50% chans of beating Tyson ,Ali had all the qualities needed to beat Tyson but I don't think he would have knocked him out(or thatTyson would have knocked Ali out for that matter.

Larry Holmes 40% chans of beating Tyson. Holmes also had the speed ,timing and footwork to deal with Tyson.

Lennox Lewis 35% chance of winning.

Ali (post exile) 25% chans.Ali in the 70s was simply to slow for Tyson, but u never know.


Foreman 25% chans of beating Tyson. This fight would have ended in a knockout one way or another. Most possible outcome is that Foreman would have missed all his punches but he would still get hit by Tyson. On the other hand IF Foreman could catch Tyson with his punches (very unlikely he would) Tyson wouldn't last more then 2-3 rounds.

Joe Louis 20% chans, might have enough talent but since I consider that boxing have developed to much since the 40's I think he would have lost.


Frazier 10% chans of beating Tyson. This would have been a missmatch..Fraziers aggressive style simple wouldnt work. I don't think Frazier would have lasted even a round.

Evander Holyfield 10% chance, Blown up cruiserweight.. I find Holyfield overrated. Think he would come out short against most heavy punchers.

Rocky Marciano 5% chance of beating Tyson, to small and to light.. total missmatch.

i love the fact that you say it;s unlikely Foreman would catch Tyson with his shots. never heard such BS.

I'd have it

Foreman 85% chance of winning.

Ali 80% chance

Liston 80%

Lewis 45%

Bowe 50%

Holfield 55%

Louis 15%

Marciano 10%

Frazier 35%

Holmes 50%

[Kid Achilles]

Maybe Tony Tucker had some great attributes, as you mentioned, but he was not a great fighter. Physicality is only a small portion of what makes a great fighter. Without the right mindset to bring it all together you can be the strongest and fastest fighter on the planet and still get your ass kicked by a guy who is half as fast and hard hitting.

[MrSinister]

i love the fact that you say it;s unlikely Foreman would catch Tyson with his shots. never heard such BS.

I'd have it

Foreman 85% chance of winning.

Ali 80% chance

Liston 80%

Lewis 45%

Bowe 50%

Holfield 55%

Louis 15%

Marciano 10%

Frazier 35%

Holmes 50%

Why so sure Foreman would hit Tyson? Tyson hardly got got hit by anybody and Foreman was zzzlooow.

Why do you give Holyfield and Bowe a better chans of beating Tyson then Lewis.Is it stylerelated? Because you don't rate those guys higher then Lewis do you?

[leff]

Why so sure Foreman would hit Tyson? Tyson hardly got got hit by anybody and Foreman was zzzlooow.

Why do you give Holyfield and Bowe a better chans of beating Tyson then Lewis.Is it stylerelated? Because you don't rate those guys higher then Lewis do you?

probably cause lewis had the weaker chin.

anyway saying frazier had a 10% chance off beating frazier is probably the dumbest hting ive heard this month

[Kid Achilles]

Foreman was not slow. Foreman in his prime was quicker than some of those big heavyweights Tyson fought who were able to hit him.

[Southpaw Stinger]

Foreman was not slow. Foreman in his prime was quicker than some of those big heavyweights Tyson fought who were able to hit him.

exactly. people often see the plodding gaint sized Foreman of the 90's.