what if

[king4fore]

Fighters from Baers period are usually overated. I think Louis is one of the only guys from that time who can be considered great.

what about schemling,and jack sharkey

[SABBATH]

That clip leaves out the fact that Galento quit before the 8th round of the fight claiming that he couldn't breath. There was never a hand injury, as the video claims, Galento was simply unwilling to endure any more of Max's punches.

As for the Nova fight, where a shopworn Baer has trouble taking him out, how about a young Foreman going a total of twenty rounds with light-heavyweight Gregoria Peralta and landing his share of hard blows without producing as much as a knockdown.

Are you going to tell me Foreman wasn't an all time great puncher because of that?

I'm sure Galento couldn't breath with the 244 lbs of sludge he was carrying on his 5'9 frame. What a poor excuse for a proffessional athlete.

If you're going to classify the 197 lb 91 fight veteran Peralta as a light-heavyweight then I suggest you re-evaluate Baer's opposition many who weighed less than Peralta and had lengthy careers at light-heavyweight such as Jim Braddock who spent the majority of his career as a journeyman light-heavyweight who a prime Baer couldn't even dent over 15 rounds. I've already listed more than a few small heavyweights who not only went the distance with Baer but in fact defeated him.

I don't seem to recall Foreman losing to smaller men when he was 40-0 with 37 KO's going into the Ali fight.

[Kid Achilles]

Spot on Stiv. Foreman has the better skills and sure he has the overall edge in this fight but the clowns who say he blows the durable Baer out in one round need to put down the crack pipe.

Max Baer > Ron Lyle

If Baer is motivated and comes in at a lean 205-210 pounds it would mean a long night for Foreman. The guy, as I keep saying, was huge, a natural 230 lber who worked all the fat off of his torso, arms, and legs until what was left was 200-220 lbs of dense muscle. Foreman was soft at 215-220 in comparison. Foreman had pacing problems and stamina problems. He openly admitted in his book that he never ran more than 2 miles or so a day when he was younger. Baer on the other hand was extremely fit in his prime and had phenomenal stamina for such a large framed guy.

This will be my last post on this thread. I'm sick of arguing with people who don't know anything about boxing pre 1960 and who are extremely biased against the fighters of the time. What's the point, when people are so ignorant and unwilling to change their viewpoint. Stylistic Baer is a formidable challenge for Foreman because he has an awesome right hand (the punch that gave Foreman so much trouble against Lyle), much better stamina than Foreman, and a chin that was at least as good as Big George's. Basically Foreman is fighting a cruder version of himself (their styles do look a little different but the same kind of punching power, punch resistance, attitude etc) with better stamina. It'd be a tough fight, and I don't care what anyone says.

As for the glove matter, Stiv is correct again and Baer routinely had problems with his right hand. He hit so hard that he was plagued with hand injuries, specifically leading up to his fight with Louis, the biggest of his career. What would have happened to Frazier if he had an injured left hand against Ali? What kind of chance would you give him?

Put the bigger gloves that Foreman wore on Baer and he will have a field day, throwing huge punches with less fear of injuring himself.

Anyway I look at this, it's a tough fight to call because of the raw power of both men, and the superior conditioning of Baer. If Baer can give as good as he takes and get Foreman's respect like Lyle did, he will be in much better shape with each passing round. If the fight goes late, I think Baer takes it. Foreman's best hope is an early blitz but I think Baer is too durable so the likely scenario for me has the fight ending in the no man's land of the middle rounds, by brutal stoppage, and by either man.

[BKM-]

[QUOTE=Kid Achilles]
As for the Nova fight, where a shopworn Baer has trouble taking him out, how about a young Foreman going a total of twenty rounds with light-heavyweight Gregoria Peralta and landing his share of hard blows without producing as much as a knockdown.[QUOTE]

I gotta say though, even though i dont agree with everything you said, very good point about Foreman.

[SABBATH]

Anyway I look at this, it's a tough fight to call because of the raw power of both men, and the superior conditioning of Baer. If Baer can give as good as he takes and get Foreman's respect like Lyle did, he will be in much better shape with each passing round. If the fight goes late, I think Baer takes it. Foreman's best hope is an early blitz but I think Baer is too durable so the likely scenario for me has the fight ending in the no man's land of the middle rounds, by brutal stoppage, and by either man.

The problem with your analogy is your constant reference to the Lyle fight.

Ron Lyle was a prison hardened tough man. Baer in comparison was a womanizing playboy who by his own admission didn't like fighting, was a slacker in training, a clown in and out of the ring and admittedly quit and took the count in his fight against Joe Louis to avoid punishment. This is the guy that was having *** in his dressing room before defending his title against Braddock. What kind of mindset is this to carry into a slugfest with George Foreman?

Baer NEVER displayed the type of resolve to dig deep and come back from a tough drag-em-out get off the deck fight. Foreman could only hope Baer fought him like Lyle did.

[Kid Achilles]

Lyle was a prison hardened tough man who was completely overwhelmed and intimidated in his biggest fight against Muhammad Ali. I think you are overrating Lyle's mentality and underrating Baer's. Yeah Lyle was tough but on his best night, against Schmeling, Baer walked through some really heavy punishment to land his own shots and did not shrink in the face of a tough counter puncher in Schmeling.

Against Louis, a masterful combination and counter puncher, Baer really had no hope and knew that by the second round or so, but Foreman did not have such skill and would not be connecting with the steady stream of punishment that Louis did.

As for him sleeping with women on the morning of the Braddock fight, he was overconfident and thought, no knew, he could put Jim away at any time. Do you really think he'd put forth such a pisspoor effort for a fighter and puncher of Foreman's caliber? Doubtful.

Again, I'm not saying Baer wins this but it's a close call. Foreman never faced a guy who was in his league in terms of punching power, chin, and tenacity. The closest he came was Lyle, who had none of Baer's chin or stamina, and he came within an inch of losing that one by KO. I'm not saying Baer is exactly Lyle with a better chin and stamina, but he would represent a unique challenge that Foreman had never dealt with.

The same goes for Baer: he never faced a guy with Foreman's characteristics and physical tools.

So again, it's impossible to say what would have happened, but I think it would be a heated brawl fought on even terms and the result would be a stoppage or a knockout.

[SABBATH]

Lyle was a prison hardened tough man who was completely overwhelmed and intimidated in his biggest fight against Muhammad Ali. I think you are overrating Lyle's mentality and underrating Baer's. Yeah Lyle was tough but on his best night, against Schmeling, Baer walked through some really heavy punishment to land his own shots and did not shrink in the face of a tough counter puncher in Schmeling.

Against Louis, a masterful combination and counter puncher, Baer really had no hope and knew that by the second round or so, but Foreman did not have such skill and would not be connecting with the steady stream of punishment that Louis did.

How was Lyle overwhelmed and intimidated in the Ali fight? He fought a very intelligent fight, conserving his energy by fighting in mid-ring and forcing Ali to fight as the aggressor. Lyle's game plan had him leading on the scorecards after ten rounds before a perfectly timed right hand by Ali badly hurt Lyle.

You should watch Lyle-Shavers where Lyle absorbed bombs from Shavers including a 2nd round knockdown that I still don't know how the hell he got up from....and rallied to win by KO all the while standing toe to toe with one of the hardest hitting heavyweights of all time. He also went toe to toe with Foreman absorbed some hellacious punches and got off the deck in that one too.

Believe me, I don't overrate Lyle's mentality. Baer's fight with Schmeling doesn't remotely compare. Schmeling was leading the fight and won his rounds in a measured methodical fashion while Baer according to the NY TIMES "petered out" after an opening round in which Baer "started out like a human tornado."

Baer had sore hands going into the Louis fight did not want to even enter the ring. Baer made a decision in his dressing room that Louis was going to slaughter him and he couldn't go through with the fight. Baer had to be persuaded by a disgusted Jack Dempsey to leave the dressing room and "get in the ring and fight like a champion."

"I could have got up, but it wouldn't have done me any good.....Quit? Sure I quit. But I was just being smart." - Max Baer after being KO'd by Joe Louis

[Kid Achilles]

You are not telling me anything new in regards to Baer's condition and state of mind in his fight against Louis. The injured right hand was part of the reason he did not fight his best in that fight, took such a beating, and then quit. Why go on injured against such a great champion when you can live to fight another day?

For the purposes of this Foreman fight, Baer's hand is healthy.

My point is, Foreman never dealt with anyone like Baer, let alone beat such a fighter convincingly, so I don't know how people can go around saying he'd blast him out in a round or two.

[Southpaw Stinger]

My point is, Foreman never dealt with anyone like Baer, let alone beat such a fighter convincingly, so I don't know how people can go around saying he'd blast him out in a round or two.

And did Baer ever fight someone like Foreman?

[Kid Achilles]

No he didn't, which is why no one knows what the hell would happen and why anyone posting a one or two round knockout for either guy is a nut.