Rocky Marciano is not a top ten all time heavyweight and I'll tell you why

[soul_survivor]

1) He would be considered a crusierweight even a small one by today's standards and couldnt compete with the bigger guys. His team kept him away from big guys like Nino Valdez who was ranked in the 50s

2) His era was one of the weakest of all time

3) His skill set is overlooked but he was great at what he did but not much else. His defense could be porous, he lacked a jab, his cut pretty easy at the elite level as well

4) His best opponents were past prime. Walcott, Moore and Louis were all closer to 40 than 30. Walcott was a great fighter but was worn out with nearly 100 fights and started at 160

5)He never fought anyone very good or great in their prime to show how good he really was and what he could or couldnt deal with. Patterson and Liston were on the rise but it wasnt to be, Rocky retired before they established themselves.



These are the greatest/ best heavyweights of all time in my book

Ali
Holmes
Louis
Frazier
Wlad
Foreman
Tyson
Holyfield
Lewis
Jack Johnson


honorable mention: Liston, Vitali, Dempsey, Tunney, Charles



Marciano was a great fighter.....but could he compete with these guys? did he face the competition they did? no AND NO

Your first point is mute tbh.

I agree he didn't have the best comp but beating past their best versions of Charles and moore ain't bad, considering moore was still a aLHW force post that fight.

You're top 10 lists wlad who has a worse resume than marciano. Johnson has even more limited title reign than marciano. What's your justification for those names in your top 10?

[therealpugilist]

Your first point is mute tbh.

I agree he didn't have the best comp but beating past their best versions of Charles and moore ain't bad, considering moore was still a aLHW force post that fight.

You're top 10 lists wlad who has a worse resume than marciano. Johnson has even more limited title reign than marciano. What's your justification for those names in your top 10?

Jack Johnson beat most of the tough black fighters who couldnt get title shots and every contender they threw at him. Sam Lagford, Joe Jeanette, Sam Mcvey in their primes several times. He fought, drew with and beat a lot of good competition

Wlad was champion longer and beat ever legit challenge in his era...I doubt Rocky could dominate chris Byrd, Sam Peter, David Haye, and povetkin the way wlad did. .Rocky did not face a lot of top ten contenders like wlad did in his career, regardless of era. He was moved slow, didnt have as extensive an amatuer career.

i

[soul_survivor]

Jack Johnson beat most of the tough black fighters who couldnt get title shots and every contender they threw at him. Sam Lagford, Joe Jeanette, Sam Mcvey in their primes several times. He fought, drew with and beat a lot of good competition

Wlad was champion longer and beat ever legit challenge in his era...I doubt Rocky could dominate chris Byrd, Sam Peter, David Haye, and povetkin the way wlad did. .Rocky did not face a lot of top ten contenders like wlad did in his career, regardless of era. He was moved slow, didnt have as extensive an amatuer career.

i

What does his amateur career have to do with his professional ranking?

And it's no good just naming names. Marciano beat two legitimate atgs and a very good fighter in Walcott. He also beat a tonne of top contenders before ever having the title shot.

Johnson did the same. You can't use that as a differentiating factor because it's not one.

The same goes for wlad. You're naming him having beaten so and so but how many of those fighters ever did anything before or after the wlad fight? His best win is haye and he himself is several rungs below being an ATG.

There are no arguments for not having marciano top 10 if you're willing to have Johnson AND wlad.

All 3 are somewhat in the same boat although Johnson obviously gets credited for being a pioneer.

[soul_survivor]

my top 10:

1. Muhammad Ali
2. George Foreman
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Larry Holmes
5. Joe Louis
6. Joe Frazier
7. Lennox Lewis
8. Mike Tyson
9. Rocky Marciano
10. Sonny Liston
11. Wladimir Klitschko
12. Ezzard Charles
13. Gene Tunney
14. Jack Dempsey
15. Vitali Klitschko
16. Jack Johnson
17. Michael Spinks
18. Jersey Joe Walcot
19. Rid**** Bowe
20. Chris Byrd

[The Old LefHook]

I guess every list on here proves blacks are more endowed for boxing than whites. There is only mathematical statistical proof, no other kind, folks. Men gained knowledge empirically in ancient times. If something happened enough, it was true. In this way men became experts in metal working without a scrap of chemical knowledge.

It is not a matter of how many are doing it. Please. Blacks are also far superior track stars, baketball players, wide receivers, running backs and defensive backs. The Klits never became a force until the big black (Lewis) was gone from the scene. Vlad was the only galoot on the scene for many years, dominating scrubs and smaller men. The first time he came up against another galoot with any measure of skill, the galoot sang him songs while beating him, everything but a lullaby.

We aren't supposed to talk about it, right? In a history section fully aware of the history of the heavyweight division, are we really expected to ignore the most blatant historical consistency that came about immediately after blacks were allowed in. Some truths are not wanted. This is one of them. They are not wanted so badly, in fact, that people will ban you, fight you, expell you, ostracise you and even shoot you for mentioning them.

And it is not as if you would be stating something that is said all the time around here. You know it isn't. You know that, tacitly, it is not allowed. Well, maybe once, as long as it quietly goes away because everyone is too politically correct to want this particular truth. It is so much easier to accuse you of racism and move on.

Since this is a boxing forum, I am not willing to discuss whether blacks are put together as well as northern Europeans for doing mathematics. What I have noticed is in boxing. And what I can tell you is blacks are better put together for boxing.

When as a little kid I noticed blacks had better muscles, my daddy said it was the way the ring lights shined on their color. No, daddy, they have more testosterone, which grows them more muscle and makes them more aggressive. No, daddy, it is not environmental (at least the modern one). If fewer blacks were in sports because there was full opportunity elsewhere, it is still the muscular ones who would be the boxers and running backs anyway, so it doesn't matter that there would be fewer of them in sports, because the ones most suited for it would still be, and blacks have more muscle boys per capita to choose from.

Physiological differences cannot be argued with, but are academically well known. Anyone who tells you they are a physiologist and that blacks do not in general have longer limbs for their heights, narrower waists, more muscle density, more testosterone and a larger psoas major (all just for mere starters) is a liar and probably drives a taxi.

[All in]

1) He would be considered a crusierweight even a small one by today's standards and couldnt compete with the bigger guys. His team kept him away from big guys like Nino Valdez who was ranked in the 50s

2) His era was one of the weakest of all time

3) His skill set is overlooked but he was great at what he did but not much else. His defense could be porous, he lacked a jab, his cut pretty easy at the elite level as well

4) His best opponents were past prime. Walcott, Moore and Louis were all closer to 40 than 30. Walcott was a great fighter but was worn out with nearly 100 fights and started at 160

5)He never fought anyone very good or great in their prime to show how good he really was and what he could or couldnt deal with. Patterson and Liston were on the rise but it wasnt to be, Rocky retired before they established themselves.



These are the greatest/ best heavyweights of all time in my book

Ali
Holmes
Louis
Frazier
Wlad
Foreman
Tyson
Holyfield
Lewis
Jack Johnson


honorable mention: Liston, Vitali, Dempsey, Tunney, Charles



Marciano was a great fighter.....but could he compete with these guys? did he face the competition they did? no AND NO

He beat Joe Louis's ass.......Joe Louis was 77 years old

[therealpugilist]

He beat Joe Louis's ass.......Joe Louis was 77 years old

175 years old to be exact lol

[ShoulderRoll]

I guess every list on here proves blacks are more endowed for boxing than whites.

No need to make this a racial thing.

Jack Dempsey and Gene Tunney were superior to Marciano. It's his skills that I am not wowed by. Not his skin color.

[The Old LefHook]

No need to make this a racial thing.

No need for the truth. I am not making it a racial thing, it is a racial thing. I am not trying to start an argument, I am making an observation most people have made for themselves and are afraid to state or have been brainwashed out of. Why, the very idea! They have been told and re-educated to believe this should not be talked about. They are a disgrace if they mention such a thing.

More fast twitch fibers is advantageous in practically every individual sport and team position. Those particular muscle fibers might not confer any advantage at the World's Strongest Man Competition, but almost everywhere else in Sportl'nd they do.

Whether you or I or anyone else likes it, it comes down to the empirical and scientific observation that white men are operating at a physical disadvantage to black men in almost all sports.

The pertinent question is: Do whites hold any physical counter advantages? If so, what are they? The question is interesting by itself, and so are the answers. People are afraid of these questions and these answers. I will know when the biting and nail scratching starts.

[them_apples]

he is overrated but busting up walcott and moore are still good enough wins to be considered and he did fights with his nose torn in half and didn't give a **** ass so clearly the man is tough as **** to be considered a "tough" guy in 1950, back when everyone was tough.

then the other factor is boxing has had only 2 stronger HW eras, the 70's and the 90's - the 70's being the better of the 2.

I don't buy the cruiser-weight argument because back then Rocky did everything in his power to be as light as possible. He ran 12 miles a day in hill country and didn't touch weights. His Stamina was unbelievable as was his re-cooperation powers. I see fat clowns today coming in at 230-250 and they are no bigger than Rocky just fatter, and would certainly lose. Rocky was easily over 250 when he stopped training and he looked about in the same shape as a Bermane Stivern