Is the "Old vs New" debate unique to boxing?

[JAB5239]

This TED Talk is an interesting one and relevant to the thread topic.






"In 1936, Jesse Owens held the world record in the 100 meters. Had Jesse Owens been racing last year in the world championships of the 100 meters, when Jamaican sprinter Usain Bolt finished, Owens would have still had 14 feet to go. That's a lot in sprinter land. To give you a sense of how much it is, I want to share with you a demonstration conceived by sports scientist Ross Tucker. Now picture the stadium last year at the world championships of the 100 meters: thousands of fans waiting with baited breath to see Usain Bolt, the fastest man in history; flashbulbs popping as the nine fastest men in the world coil themselves into their blocks. And I want you to pretend that Jesse Owens is in that race. Now close your eyes for a second and picture the race. ****! The gun goes off. An American sprinter jumps out to the front. Usain Bolt starts to catch him. Usain Bolt passes him, and as the runners come to the finish, you'll hear a beep as each man crosses the line. (Beeps) That's the entire finish of the race. You can open your eyes now.

That first beep was Usain Bolt. That last beep was Jesse Owens. Listen to it again. (Beeps) When you think of it like that, it's not that big a difference, is it? And then consider that Usain Bolt started by propelling himself out of blocks down a specially fabricated carpet designed to allow him to travel as fast as humanly possible. Jesse Owens, on the other hand, ran on cinders, the ash from burnt wood, and that soft surface stole far more energy from his legs as he ran. Rather than blocks, Jesse Owens had a gardening trowel that he had to use to dig holes in the cinders to start from. Biomechanical analysis of the speed of Owens' joints shows that had been running on the same surface as Bolt, he wouldn't have been 14 feet behind, he would have been within one stride. Rather than the last beep, Owens would have been the second beep. Listen to it again. (Beeps) That's the difference track surface technology has made, and it's done it throughout the running world."

Don't know when that was written but I've been saying the same thing for years. Evolution happens over millions of years, not decades. Nice find.

[billeau2]

Don't know when that was written but I've been saying the same thing for years. Evolution happens over millions of years, not decades. Nice find.

Yes there has been a sizable contingent trying to make just this point. Unfortunately we do not have a scientifically literate culture...Its a similar situation when some one pipes up how the dinasours died out because they were ill equipped...and then you have to explain to them that dinos had been on the Earth for many many millions of years more than human beings!

When we adapt to the environment we can reach a certain potential...If we are Ethiopians who have to run around....all the 250 pound guys die off...so we get many smaller well equipped smaller runners....If we are warriors who have to have great strength and aggression then Samoa does well...smaller Samoans die out under the circumstances...so who is more evolved? the Ethiopians or the Samoans? Within the potential of a human being we see two adaptations physiologially to the environment.

When we see the potential of a 275 heavyweight, we would not see that guy in 1849 because they would not last 5 rounds, much less 45 rounds! Make bigger gloves, less rounds and you see more 250 plus guys...But nowhere do i see a qualifier that these guys are "better" or worse.

If you really want 300 pound heavyweights, make fights 5 rounds. Whagt people who know the game do is look at the actual skills regardless of size. Thats where the klits come up short....pardon the pun!

[them_apples]

Athletes in boxing now have longer careers because they fight less and treat the sport like a business. In the past boxers were poor people from rough hungry backgrounds with a ton of heart and nothing on their minds besides boxing and partying.

But when these guys trained, they trained. There's a reason a featherweight named Manny Pacquiao ran through the welterweight division without weighing more than 148 lbs. He was the last of his kind coming from brutal poverty. This wouldn't have happened 20 or 30 years ago.

In the past poverty was rampant, even in the USA. These guys would bring all the hardships of life into the ring and take it out on their opponent.

Now boxers wear business suits, they look for the easiest fight for the most money, they take half the round off - they skip road work and lift weights to look better on TV. Of course it's been a gradual decline - but a sport as rough as boxing is not going to find ideal candidates in an upper middle class neighborhood.

On top of that the general decline in popularity has also effected trainers. Amateur trainers are training pros. More and more boxers in the pro ranks never shake the "volume flurries of ineffective punches" encouraged in the amateurs.

Overall the entire talent pool has shrunk, the amount of boxers available - especially proportionally has shrunk. The times are different, feminism is embraced and the days of the macho man are over because they are no longer needed.

I can tell you right now there are even mediocre boxers from years ago that could beat the upper talents of the sport today.

We all saw a 5'7 plump Marcos Maidana put hands on Floyd Mayweather. Maidana is a smaller and lower class version of Pipino cuevas.

[them_apples]

Yes there has been a sizable contingent trying to make just this point. Unfortunately we do not have a scientifically literate culture...Its a similar situation when some one pipes up how the dinasours died out because they were ill equipped...and then you have to explain to them that dinos had been on the Earth for many many millions of years more than human beings!

When we adapt to the environment we can reach a certain potential...If we are Ethiopians who have to run around....all the 250 pound guys die off...so we get many smaller well equipped smaller runners....If we are warriors who have to have great strength and aggression then Samoa does well...smaller Samoans die out under the circumstances...so who is more evolved? the Ethiopians or the Samoans? Within the potential of a human being we see two adaptations physiologially to the environment.

When we see the potential of a 275 heavyweight, we would not see that guy in 1849 because they would not last 5 rounds, much less 45 rounds! Make bigger gloves, less rounds and you see more 250 plus guys...But nowhere do i see a qualifier that these guys are "better" or worse.

If you really want 300 pound heavyweights, make fights 5 rounds. Whagt people who know the game do is look at the actual skills regardless of size. Thats where the klits come up short....pardon the pun!

Evander Holyfield was 210 lbs in his prime. David Haye was a built up 210. Yet people rant and rave about the overweight cows of the sport, as if these men are modern marvels of physical performance. It would be easy for Muhammed Ali or George Foreman to be 270-300 lbs if that's what they wanted.

[them_apples]

It was I believe college,im having trouble finding his interview ive seen a few articles stating he had done wrestling too....here are some others hes done.....


In high school, however, Lewis did not just box. While attending Cameron Heights Collegiate High, he played fullback on football team, power forward on basketball team, and did track as a shot-putter.

He went to my high school. He always boxed first and foremost. Out of a gym that is no longer is business. He koed a few kids too that thought they could fight him. Back then Kitchener was a factory town with lots of low life losers (still quite a few but RIM (blackberry) has added a lot of class to the area and they are all being shoved in Hamilton now, the ******* of Ontario lol)

He played basketball obviously and was tall and on the lankier side. He built himself up over the years in the gym but always had that tall lanky glass jaw that weights can't fix. This guy didn't look like George Foreman when he was 18.

[juggernaut666]

He went to my high school. He always boxed first and foremost. Out of a gym that is no longer is business. He koed a few kids too that thought they could fight him. Back then Kitchener was a factory town with lots of low life losers (still quite a few but RIM (blackberry) has added a lot of class to the area and they are all being shoved in Hamilton now, the ******* of Ontario lol)

He played basketball obviously and was tall and on the lankier side. He built himself up over the years in the gym but always had that tall lanky glass jaw that weights can't fix. This guy didn't look like George Foreman when he was 18.

I slapped box Lewis back in 1992 ,he was fast ,couldnt touch him,i was just getting into interest in combat. He trained in poconos thats when he started doing weights,he had a giant frame to add too.

[The Old LefHook]

Everyone understands that Bob Cousey would still be magic on the basketball court with today's pros. Wilt and Bill Russel would do just fine, and Jim Brown is still a first class running back. Jesse Owns is a star in a real pair of running shoes on a springy rubberized modern track instead of an old dirt and cinder course. Just those two things should knock .3-.5 seconds off his time in the hundred yard or meter dashes. Whether he is the world champion and record holder, he is one of those guys that seems always to be in the finals.

A boxer has to learn a lot more than a man who runs with or without a ball, his habits have to be consistent, and their are more of them.

I don't know why some people insist that today's fighters would destroy yesterday's fighters, outside of heavyweights. With heavyweights I can understand the obvious reasoning. Are middleweights and featherweights today doing anything special the old timers didn't do, or is it the other way around? Or is it a little of both? Certainly they are fighting less today. Certainly that gives them more time to be rested and at peak, but also might deprive them of foundational experience needed to compete in other eras at the pace fighers were once promoted. Woe to some of today's champions with 20-30 fights going up against all time greats of the past with 70-80 fights at exactly the same age. I don't think their Wheaties and their exercise machines can compensate for that. Their instant-muscle in a syringe might, but we are going to deprive them of that.