Pre-1960 and Post-1960 boxers

[sonnyboyx2]

Carnera lost more than a dozen times and was knocked out a handful of times too. Rating him above Lewis and the Klitschko's just doesn't make sense in any way. Not when you look at resume's, not h2h either.

Carnera losing over a dozen bouts at the tail-end of his career is meaningless. Carnera won over 80 fights before getting KOd by Max Baer. Yes they were against Class C/D opposition, but Lewis, Wlad, Vitali all fought the same class C/D opponents early in their career's.... Ezzard Charles lost over over 20 of his last 30 bouts..

What you are not addressing is the men who knocked out Wlad, Lewis, Vitali & Briggs.. They were mediocre journeyman at best. unlike Joe Louis, Max Baer & Jack Dempsey who knocked out Carnera & Willard.

The bottom line is, like it or not. But Carnera & Willard was according to video footage better that Wlad, Vitali, Lewis & Briggs.... their resume is the equal of them and H2H i would take them to prove very formidable opponents for them. In fact because of his greater mobility, a strong case can be made that Carnera would beat them. While Willard at his best could fight for 25rds against a ATG Top 10 fighter....it is foolish to dismiss the grainy old black & white film-footage as "Rubbish".. we have all sat through Wlad, Lewis, Vitali snoozers on so many occasions. Just think how they would look if fimed with the equipment Willard & Carnera were filmed with..

[The Old LefHook]

Carnera losing over a dozen bouts at the tail-end of his career is meaningless. Carnera won over 80 fights before getting KOd by Max Baer. Yes they were against Class C/D opposition, but Lewis, Wlad, Vitali all fought the same class C/D opponents early in their career's.... Ezzard Charles lost over over 20 of his last 30 bouts..

What you are not addressing is the men who knocked out Wlad, Lewis, Vitali & Briggs.. They were mediocre journeyman at best. unlike Joe Louis, Max Baer & Jack Dempsey who knocked out Carnera & Willard.

The bottom line is, like it or not. But Carnera & Willard was according to video footage better that Wlad, Vitali, Lewis & Briggs.... their resume is the equal of them and H2H i would take them to prove very formidable opponents for them. In fact because of his greater mobility, a strong case can be made that Carnera would beat them. While Willard at his best could fight for 25rds against a ATG Top 10 fighter....it is foolish to dismiss the grainy old black & white film-footage as "Rubbish".. we have all sat through Wlad, Lewis, Vitali snoozers on so many occasions. Just think how they would look if fimed with the equipment Willard & Carnera were filmed with..

I don't put much stock in losses at the end of a career either. It happens to near virtually every fighter if he fights on, so there is not much information in it. Rare exceptions such as Uzcudun, whom memory reminds me from another post on another site, was only KO'd in his last fight after a career of facing good punchers, can say a bit, though, about certain aspects of a man's quality.

The reason I would have to bet against Primo if he faced Lewis, Vlad or Vitaly, is I believe he has no punching technique, and therefore a light punch unless everything is perfect. But even worse for him is that he has no defense other than holding out his arms and leaning backwards. That is not going to be a problem for men of their size to penetrate. In fact, I would say it is a habit even Vlad had best shed before he meets Tyson Fury.

Though I personally believe beard is the most consistent quality among cream of the crop ATG's, it cannot operate successfully by itself.

[McGoorty]

You have a point here which we can address, "Heavyweights keep getting Bigger".... They keep getting bigger because the Heavyweight limit of 200lbs and over, gives these guys the window of opportunity to use Steroids, PEDs Etc, Etc. 250lbs is the norm in our days for Heavyweights to weigh-in. Can you imagine Mayweather weighing in at 50lbs heavier. even 10lbs heavier would blunt his reflex's and skills. So what Lennox, Wlad, Vitali, Briggs & Co do not understand is that carrying 30lbs of extra bulk is detrimental to their performance.

Yeah it slows them down but there are benefits like much added weight to punches, hey it certainly is possible for smaller heavyweights to beat the monoliths, Tyson and Dempsey and Marciano... even Les Darcy showed this (the Hardwicke fight)...... the key is to utilize the advantages of being lighter and shorter..... Marciano said that being short helped him duck and manouver his way into close range where his short arms and his awesome power could come into play, the drawback is that you have to be able to absorb punishment, good heavyweights are usually good at that. I think the main factors for success here is the same qualities Marciano had... no one was tougher, no one had more stamina... stamina is soooooooooo important..... having a big punch helps, Marciano used every muscle in his body to deliver every pound he carried into the punch and he had the stamina to keep throwing them... now if a guy is a better boxer than the Rock and faster then you really do have a fighting machine capable of nearly anything... oh yeah good footwork would be an asset.. and being a great ducker and weaver too..... now if the shorter guy has a freakish reach like Darcy then he would be even more likely to win.. he could then choose to fight at a distance of his choosing, being on the outside landing punches and being hard to hit because of ducking under and coming up whilst throwing big blows can get on top then coming in close to finish the big one off.... all this also depends on what the behemoth does, if he is big and slick and has power and can take anything dished out he will probably nullify everything the smaller guy does..... depending on if the weight he carries is normal to the size of his frame... a blown up guy as you said will not be anywhere near a premium

[Weltschmerz]

Carnera losing over a dozen bouts at the tail-end of his career is meaningless. Carnera won over 80 fights before getting KOd by Max Baer. Yes they were against Class C/D opposition, but Lewis, Wlad, Vitali all fought the same class C/D opponents early in their career's.... Ezzard Charles lost over over 20 of his last 30 bouts..

What you are not addressing is the men who knocked out Wlad, Lewis, Vitali & Briggs.. They were mediocre journeyman at best. unlike Joe Louis, Max Baer & Jack Dempsey who knocked out Carnera & Willard.

The bottom line is, like it or not. But Carnera & Willard was according to video footage better that Wlad, Vitali, Lewis & Briggs.... their resume is the equal of them and H2H i would take them to prove very formidable opponents for them. In fact because of his greater mobility, a strong case can be made that Carnera would beat them. While Willard at his best could fight for 25rds against a ATG Top 10 fighter....it is foolish to dismiss the grainy old black & white film-footage as "Rubbish".. we have all sat through Wlad, Lewis, Vitali snoozers on so many occasions. Just think how they would look if fimed with the equipment Willard & Carnera were filmed with..

The point remains that Carnera lost to subpar opposition too. Your argument that Carnera had 'better mobility' than our contemporary heavys is nonsense. Lewis and the Klitschko bros are top athletes and had great footwork and particularly timing for such big men. Anyway, you go on believing Carnera was greater, if it suits your agenda.

[sonnyboyx2]

The point remains that Carnera lost to subpar opposition too. Your argument that Carnera had 'better mobility' than our contemporary heavys is nonsense. Lewis and the Klitschko bros are top athletes and had great footwork and particularly timing for such big men. Anyway, you go on believing Carnera was greater, if it suits your agenda.

You keep reverting back to your agenda.. Claiming Carnera lost to "subpar opposition".. Yes he did, but only after winning over 80 fights and his losses being at the tail-end of his career...

Why do you decline to address how Lewis, Wlad, Vitali & Briggs all lost by KO to subpar opposition when they were in there "Prime" unlike Carnera did or Willard did...

Why do you decline to answer how it was a "ATG Top 5 Fighter" who KOd Willard & Carnera. unlike the mediocre journeyman who KOd Lewis, Wlad, Vitali & Briggs..

You assumption Lewis, Wlad, Vitali are all "Top Athletes with Great Footwork & timing".. is laughable and simple untrue. Maybe you can post up a video of them displaying "Great Footwork"... i have already posted up a video showing the agility of foot from Carnera....

Vitali looked like his feet were nailed to the canvas
Lewis looked like he had two-left feet
Wlad is the most robotic champion in history

Let's not even start to talk steroids, PEDs, weight gain, convictions etc.

You are in total denial of the facts put in front of you, with your refusal to address the questions put to you. proof of your agenda.

[soul_survivor]

I would like to hope that Carnera isn't the measurement by which this is argued.

That's what I'm thinking, when you look at fighters pre-1960 and compare it to post, Carnera is not and should not be the poster boy for any argument.

[billeau2]

That's what I'm thinking, when you look at fighters pre-1960 and compare it to post, Carnera is not and should not be the poster boy for any argument.

It would be good to keep in mind that Canera is a polarizing figure. Along with various accusations, some of which may be true, he became a sort of stand in for a characterization....yet we had guys like Max bauers brother (buddy) and Abe simon who were not really skilled in any way.

Carnera was a guy who trained, he had a physique and he fought some great competition if nothing else. Its just kind of dismissive to not see that the guy put some decent fights together...I wll say this, Sharkey was not a bad champ, and the Max Bauer who fought Canera was probably the best version of that fighter....Bauer was another champ who gets short shift at times...

I also think one can exxagerate his achievements....I dont pretend to know how he would do against a guy like Povatkin. But where I agree with Sonny, without trying to predict a winner, or loser, is that Carnera moved better, fought better inside, and had a better chin than the klits.... I do think the Klits both have much stronger punching, which carries the day at times...I mean we could say for example that Carnera fought better inside than Ali...but that is not the same as saying he was on the level if the greatest isn't it? what it really means is that Ali did not generally choose to fight inside.

[Bundana]

It would be good to keep in mind that Canera is a polarizing figure. Along with various accusations, some of which may be true, he became a sort of stand in for a characterization....yet we had guys like Max bauers brother (buddy) and Abe simon who were not really skilled in any way.

Carnera was a guy who trained, he had a physique and he fought some great competition if nothing else. Its just kind of dismissive to not see that the guy put some decent fights together...I wll say this, Sharkey was not a bad champ, and the Max Bauer who fought Canera was probably the best version of that fighter....Bauer was another champ who gets short shift at times...

I also think one can exxagerate his achievements....I dont pretend to know how he would do against a guy like Povatkin. But where I agree with Sonny, without trying to predict a winner, or loser, is that Carnera moved better, fought better inside, and had a better chin than the klits.... I do think the Klits both have much stronger punching, which carries the day at times...I mean we could say for example that Carnera fought better inside than Ali...but that is not the same as saying he was on the level if the greatest isn't it? what it really means is that Ali did not generally choose to fight inside.

"the klits"! When we're talking chin, don't you think we should distinguish between the two? Or are you saying, that Carnera had a better chin than BOTH Brothers?

[billeau2]

"the klits"! When we're talking chin, don't you think we should distinguish between the two? Or are you saying, that Carnera had a better chin than BOTH Brothers?

I am indeed saying his chin was superior to both. Vitalie was rocked by Sanders....its hard to catch but it happens in the first round. If you watch
Ali take the shot he did from Frazier and get up, or Carnera deal with Max bauer's textbook right that floored him, I do not see Vitalie getting up from either of these shots. I do acknowledge this is an opinion. But even in the lewis fight Vitalie took good shots and handled them well, but seemed to be slowing down and less aggressive as the shots were coming. Carnera would actually get more aggressive when attacked and took some amazing shots in so doing.

[McGoorty]

That's what I'm thinking, when you look at fighters pre-1960 and compare it to post, Carnera is not and should not be the poster boy for any argument.

I agree, there must be 250 better examples than Carnera, just too many crooks were around him