Sonny Liston would dominate if he fought today!

[LacedUp]

Ok, I'll spare you statistics (we can go there later if you want) and look at it another way.

Ray if your viewing I want you also to TRY and answer to this very powerful post...

If, as you say Laced Up, and Ray said quote.. That most all current HW's train lazy and have regressed in skills compared to guys like Liston and Ali were, then it should be easy to answer this simple question...

Surely, some humble young man or 2 would have noticed, or their trainer will have noticed (perhaps a very knowledgable one like RAY! ) And thought to EXPLOIT such deficiency and produce a single contender in the haystack of sub mediocrity and totally expose all these lazy unskilled bums that are around these days.

Except we don't see this do we.

Never since Liston have we seen a 200-220lb fighter as slow or as uncoordinated as Liston ever become a serious factor in the division.

Never since Ali have we seen such a featherfisted and technically flawed 215lb runner & hugger like Ali ever become a serious factor in the division.

Basically, if such boxer were so effective, WHERE ARE THEY? there styles are scrappy and really easy to copy. So surely they would be present somewhere right?

Well I will tell you where it is NOT first. It is not in the top 10 of HW boxing by any sanctioning body and hasn't been for a very long time. Look at them!

And I'll give you a hint where you might see them shining brightly today.. It's called AMATEUR boxing now.

Please enlighten me to your (serious) reasons why nobody has been as smart as Ray claims to be able to train someone in the forgotten art of boxing to single handedly crack the code.

Please enlighten me to your (serious) reasons why nobody has been apt enough to spot the talentlessness of todays fighters, enlist the help of a guy like Ray and beat up these lazy ass limited HW's?

This should be good

Right there is all the evidence anyone who reflects seriously needs. If someone like Liston was effective today.. They'd be up there! The sport has evolved and moved on. I think history should be revered, the roots of the sport are important.

But RELIVING history in spite of the present is damaging to the sport. Killing it in fact!

All I am seeing is young fighters like OneRound preaching how today's guys are crap and would have got flogged, but I don't see anybody like him exploiting the situation.

And trainers like Ray promoting the same yet I don't see them producing a fighter who can topple these crap house HW's?

See where I'm coming from?

Manny Steward, and many other credible trainers/experts have been saying the heavyweight division is not even remotely close to what it used to be.

I dont think you will find any credible source saying the HW division is stronger, with more skilled and in-shape fighters than previously.

Other than that, I simply asked where´s the proof that today´s fighters are in better shape? Hardly anyone can go 12 rounds these days and the top contenders are flabby and borderline fat.

Also, stop trolling.

[Anthony342]

Some skills take time and effort to develop. Most trainers don't have subtlety when it comes to form, thats why good trainers are in such demand. Guys who come up without being scrutinized develop skill but they also develop bad habits. Most professional fighters today want to be lauded more than taught skills. For example, throwing punches from a short delivery with no telegraph. Tyson was drilled on this and Tyson studied the master at this. So Tyson went through the division like a hot knife through butter. As soon as Tyson was not treated as a student of the game, his game suffered tremendously.

In Liston's time there was the equivalent of a farm system. Guys fought and were developed.....True story my dad boxed in the Marine Corps and remembers recieving very specific instructions about where to step, what punches to throw when, etc. Thats how boxing was studied. Many times today we hear "beat his azzzz!" The point is that guys were not allowed by their team to go into a ring, during a professional fight, with bad habits. Furthermore their skills were emphasized and developed. Fighters venerated their trainers and listened to them.

As much as I liked stewart, he basically taught Vlad to grab. Compare that to how guys like Blackburn and Cus worked with their fighters. Compare this to how emmanuel, before becoming an HBO shill, worked at the Kronk gym. Why did Tommy develop such lethal skills? why was it hard to get at his chin?

a Great analogy would be if baseball, instead of having a farm system, you just had multiple leagues, hundreds of em, sandlot teams turned professional. Instead of developing skills in double and triple A, guys, at the first sign of talent were signed to play professional ball....If this happened I am quite sure idiots would say "oh ball players today are so much better athletes, they are so much stronger and throw harder, yada yada yada....

The truth would in fact be that the talent would never be developed properly, which is precisely what you see today. So you would have pitchers who would say "I specialize in fastballs, I can;t throw other stuff, and hitters who would say, I never learned to bunt and hit to the opposite field, I hit balls to go out of the park. Can you imagine how baseball would be? Heres a clue: In all competitions, with the exception of major league baseball, which recruits internationally, teams from countries that emphasize technique, how to play the game with skills and proper fundamentals, as opposed to looking for an all star to lead the team....wipe up. No American team has come close to winning any championships in the sandlot leagues...and I actually played sandlot for a while...the reason is, even in baseball! the basics and fundamentals are not coached at the level they are in Asia and in the Hispanic leagues.

We are spoiled in this country. Basically the analogy with baseball is equivalent to FIGHTERS SAYING "I DONT FIGHT INSIDE, I DON'T NEED COMBOS I JUST USE A ONE PUNCH KO" And the same idiots proclaim how good the modern fighters are who have no skills to speak of when compared to a fighter like Liston who could fight from any range, had great lateral head movement, a whip like pole jab, and would never hesitate to finish an opponent off immediately when presented with the opportunity.

Actually, a lot of hitters these days DON'T know how to bunt or hit to the opposite field. They talk about it all the time here during the baseball season on sports talk station WFAN. So much so that some idiots have called in to suggest making infield shifts illegal, rather than actually learning to hit the ball the other way. With boxing, yes it is similar, which is why someone whose considered a "throwback fighter" like Toney or Hopkins stay competitive long after you'd think they would.

[beez721]

Liston easily defeat all the today heavyweights, kills Wladimir


Posted from krikya360.com App for Android

not sure about wladimr. liston was a beast but most of the guys back then were so small. not trying to sound like elroy lol,,,,,,size isn't everything but it does help when you can use it. liston had an enormous reach but I think wlads height would have given liston some problems. I really don't know who would have come out on top but I just don't see liston walking straight thru either klitschko

[beez721]

I don't see him getting close to Vladimir. It is a good match up though, and a dangerous fight for Vlad. Even though Liston actually has a slight reach advantage, he would give away too much height and weight.

Now I am sitting here wishing Liston was fighting today...

that's the way I see it. would love to see how liston would do against a huge modern heavyweight with athleticism along with that size. liston would probably crush anyone else not named klitschko

[Elroy1]

You would argue "know", Leroy?

Neither of those stooges would even win a round against Sonny Liston. But keep trolling until you are banned. Again.

I see no problem as long as I'm not making rude remarks about a historical fighter. In my opinion it's total disrespect to dismiss either Puritty or Chisora against this level of opponent. And sure, I meant "no" not "know". This is a discussion right and I think these points are very relevant.

Why make the thread if ten guys are gonna jump on and offer nothing but "Liston would steamroll" and nothing more? Obviously there needs to be some rational thought, otherwise what's the point! And I never got that ban for anything like this anyway!

So neither of these stooges would win a round against Liston right?

Puritty got the drop on Wlad (through exhaustion albeit) and he fought to a draw with Morrison. He also fought, if you look at his record, against a far heftier and far higher quality record of opposition than Liston did. Do you really think Liston's chin could last against Morrison? Or had the chin to survive an early Wlad? I don't.

Liston fought Cruisers, or guys on massive loss streaks, or guys with extensive losses in general! That EXHAUSTS the win record of Liston. His resume is no where near as worthy as Puritty's.

Chisora is a similar case. He is much better than his record suggests. He lost against Haye and Vitali, 2 of the most awesome forces to ever set foot in a ring. He realistically BEAT Helenius. And he fought more or less on even footing with Fury and might have done better. Most importantly is that in every case, nobody ever walked through him. He came forward and he held his own.

When was Liston ever tested like this? Or when did he ever display such tenacity as Chisora? Instead, his best win was an almost light HW Patterson who never once beat a decent opponent by comparison (or even a real HW opponent).

And when Liston DID face even a whip thin and juvenile version of a good opponent (Clay/Ali) he QUIT the first time when the cards were even and then either FLOPPED or if you buy the 2nd fight as legit, he was KO'ed by the lightest punch in HW history, signifying possibly the weakest chin ever at HW. Take which you prefer!

Puritty and Chisora can take shots all night that could practically break reinforced concrete!

[Jim Jeffries]

Liston and Foreman were always two guys whose chances I liked against a prime Tyson. As for the thread, I think Sonny's thudding jab, freakish reach and solid power in both hands would serve him well in today's HW division.

[Elroy1]

Manny Steward, and many other credible trainers/experts have been saying the heavyweight division is not even remotely close to what it used to be.

I dont think you will find any credible source saying the HW division is stronger, with more skilled and in-shape fighters than previously.

Other than that, I simply asked where´s the proof that today´s fighters are in better shape? Hardly anyone can go 12 rounds these days and the top contenders are flabby and borderline fat.

Also, stop trolling.

Well obviously your not looking hard enough LacedUp because many people write articles on such topic, it's just that guys like you are quick to dismiss it and prefer to rely on "faith" in the same guys who are FROM those previous times.

I'll share with you a couple of guys who seemed to believe otherwise and they ought to know because they were there...

"It is natural for every generation to think they could have beaten up the generation that follows it. I often think this myself at times. But truth is, is that it probably isn't so.. Things keep getting better and better with time and the fighters of this time could probably beat the ones from ours."

Mike Tyson

And my personal favourite...

Evander Holyfield was once asked to do an interview and was REQUIRED to say how the fighters of the past were so much better than his time. He agreed. But when it came time, he had a change of heart and decided to ignore the script and told them what he REALLY thought.

He told them instead, how because of modern training and management that they now did not have to fight so often but were doubly effective. He told of how important strength was in boxing and how those who disagreed with him were those who did not have to fight against it! And he told how he was better than anything that came before him!

I agree with Mike.

I agree with Evander.

And I wonder, if you asked any modern HW contender what they fought of being unfavourably compared to guys like Liston! What they ALL would have to say on the matter?

I think we both know.

Now you ask for proof of modern HW's having better condition.

First theres a problem with the question. In any era, there were chubby HW's and there were athletic HW's. Because both types are effective at HW boxing. The chubby ones are more athletic than the chubby ones of old (think Arreola compared with Buster MAthis). The athletic ones are far fitter than anything of old (think Jennings compared with Ali).

The training today is SPECIFIC for boxing, far more intense, more frequent. Beyond question.

But there's still a discrepancy right. That is obviously accountable by the fact modern HW's are approximately 30lbs heavier on average.

It should come as no surprise that the workrate and the speed of a big HW is necessarily lower than that of a smaller one, it's physics! In fact these superheavies MUST pace to last the rounds no matter how conditioned, because larger muscles consume more energy than smaller ones.

And in direct contradiction to your theory, it's sometimes the CHUBBY HW's (like Arreola) who can fight furiously for 12 rounds, rather than the muscular lean ones like Wladimir who cannot, cause fat consumes less oxygen.

And of course, today's boxers in general are far more explosive because that's what they train for. Previous hits were "tip tappy" by comparison as evidenced clearly on film.

Take the Liston vs Williams fight on display here now. How do you think they would fare against a Tua left hook? Or a Stiverne right?

Again, we both know what would happen!

[Weltschmerz]

Liston and Foreman were always two guys whose chances I liked against a prime Tyson. As for the thread, I think Sonny's thudding jab, freakish reach and solid power in both hands would serve him well in today's HW division.

That was a good brawl, I think his best win in terms of opposition.

[Ray Corso]

I remember those encounters and looking back and comparing to the lack of action you see these days just adds to the thoughts on how strong boxing was then compared to now. Your seeing two men get to throwing combos right away and digging in to make an impression on each other. The lack of action today is the reason why the sport has fallen so low and it only depends on a few to keep any interests going.
Boxing has dipped down to the wrestling themes when you need a "heel" bad guy and a "hero" good guy to hype a match.

What ever happened to two likeable fellows who show respect for each other and sign to fight without the juvenile antics that accompany todays BS!

I believe we'll see some improvement once Floyd is absent and then the retirement of Wlad will help generate some interest in the heavyweights as they fight one another to declare a dominate force. The sport needs this badly.
Ray

[joeandthebums]

He lost against Haye and Vitali, 2 of the most awesome forces to ever set foot in a ring.