Heavyweight Rankings

[Dubblechin]

And btw thank you for finally admitting that losses when you're washed up dosen't hurt your standing

Classic Paterno. You selectively chose not read this on the next line JoePa: "If he'd continued fighting, and he lost 10 or 15 times, and quit after getting punched in the armpit by Monte Masters and quit because he had to take a **** ... and came in looking like a bowling ball until he was 50 ...and he continued to embarrass himself for decades ... yeah, you're damn right he wouldn't be rated as high."

Why are you so threatened by common sense? What is so difficult to understand about this?

If you beat Leonard, that's great. If you turn right around and quit against Leonard in the second fight and put up zero effort until the last round in the third fight ... that sort of takes away from the accomplishment of the first fight.

You spend eight years dominating at Lightweight, and you spend 20 years stinking out the joint ... and humiliating yourself in public. That 20 years of mediocrity and embarrassment tarnishes the parade of the other accomplishments.

It's the old one step forward, two steps back principle.

Contrast him to someone like Carlos Monzon or Hagler, who went out losing his title in controversial fashion and never came back, never spent decades losing to the likes of Frank Tate and Chris Eubank. Never showed up bloated and out of shape and quit against some journeyman like Sanderline Williams -- thanks to a punch to the armpit.

There's something to be said for fighters who reach the top, fight the best, and then get the hell out. Their overall careers are more impressive historically than people who are solid for a period and suck the majority of the time (like Duran). It's fine if you remember him when he was on top, but if you have to spend two decades telling people he used to be a lot better than the fat tub of goo boring everyone to death they are currently watching ... at some point the bad years level out the good. And it's not fair to the guys who didn't stink out the joint to rate the guy who ****** the majority of his career ahead of them.

That's all.

[Dubblechin]

there MUST be a price to pay for hubris,,,, In my opinion, once a sportsmans best days are gone... do yourself a favour and get out and hang the gloves up, and it'll stop me cringing when they do.

Exactly.

Thank you. You said it much better than I did -- and in fewer words.

[McGoorty]

But the problem with Green is, even today,a washed up has been...... even now Green is a GREEN fighter,.. when are we gonna see guys who have enough decent fights to become seasoned professionals, I'm an Aussie, but I want to put a boot up the azz of the way Australian boxing is these days.... just look at how many fights our top fighters have had from jeff fenech till today.... The ****heads here think a fighter with 30 professional fights in a lifetimetime gives them the right to everlasting ATG status..... I WANT TO SEE A REALLY GREAT AUSSIE FIGHTER IN MY LIFETIME.... Can somebody help us out of this mess..... pretty please !!!!!!!......... anyone ????

[Welsh Jon]

Who would have imagined the tangents that sprang out of this little old thread of mine?

[StarshipTrooper]

Classic Paterno. You selectively chose not read this on the next line JoePa: "If he'd continued fighting, and he lost 10 or 15 times, and quit after getting punched in the armpit by Monte Masters and quit because he had to take a **** ... and came in looking like a bowling ball until he was 50 ...and he continued to embarrass himself for decades ... yeah, you're damn right he wouldn't be rated as high."

Why are you so threatened by common sense? What is so difficult to understand about this?

If you beat Leonard, that's great. If you turn right around and quit against Leonard in the second fight and put up zero effort until the last round in the third fight ... that sort of takes away from the accomplishment of the first fight.

You spend eight years dominating at Lightweight, and you spend 20 years stinking out the joint ... and humiliating yourself in public. That 20 years of mediocrity and embarrassment tarnishes the parade of the other accomplishments.

It's the old one step forward, two steps back principle.

Contrast him to someone like Carlos Monzon or Hagler, who went out losing his title in controversial fashion and never came back, never spent decades losing to the likes of Frank Tate and Chris Eubank. Never showed up bloated and out of shape and quit against some journeyman like Sanderline Williams -- thanks to a punch to the armpit.

There's something to be said for fighters who reach the top, fight the best, and then get the hell out. Their overall careers are more impressive historically than people who are solid for a period and suck the majority of the time (like Duran). It's fine if you remember him when he was on top, but if you have to spend two decades telling people he used to be a lot better than the fat tub of goo boring everyone to death they are currently watching ... at some point the bad years level out the good. And it's not fair to the guys who didn't stink out the joint to rate the guy who ****** the majority of his career ahead of them.

That's all.

First off, "Joe Douchebag".....the only one offending common sense is YOU. Common sense if first and foremost about getting it right. Getting it right in this case means beating a washed-up fighter gets you no credit. Duh! The dude is washed-up.....that's common sense.

Secondly, nobody gives a **** whether you or any other casual fan is offended seeing a washed-up "tub of goo" fighting when he's ancient: Your emotional spasms over it are meaningless. It doesn't change or take away what the dude did in his prime. If you can't intellectually handle that then quite frankly you should go slit your wrists because you're too much of an idiot to be sharing oxygen with intelligent people.

And btw Joe Goebbels, I hate Penn State.....

Now go **** yourself

[crold1]

Poet, you are the only person with an agenda here.

Clearly. Duran was among the best fighters in boxing for eight years. From 1972 when he beat Buchanan to 1980 when he beat Leonard. Then he quit against Leonard because he either didn't want to get embarrassed or had to go poop,whichever you prefer to believe. And from then on, he was just ordinary and often terrible.

This run Manny Pacquiao has been on -- starting with Barrera in 2003 -- has now gone on for eight years (the same length of time Duran was on top).

If Manny Pacquiao QUITS Saturday night because he has to go to the bathroom, and then he fights Mayweather and quits in the sixth when he gets punched in the armpit, and he gets knocked out in two rounds by -- take your pick -- are you telling me you are going to IGNORE THOSE LOSSES like you're doing with Duran?

Of course not, because you have an agenda. But every big win counts, just like every bad loss counts. The whole career counts.

"Historians" (if that's what you think you are) don't get to pick and choose which part of history they want to remember and which part they want to forget. By definition, it's ALL HISTORY.

If you don't agree, you're just a FANBOY, like the others.

Getting back to the point of this thread, most guys have Frazier ranked in the top 10 all-time at heavyweight. But if he'd continued fighting, and racked up 10 or more losses to guys like Young, and Lyle and LeDoux and every other schmoe, like Holyfield did, his ranking wouldn't be where it is now. Because, at some point, the bad losses can't be ignored.

When too many bad losses and bad performances start adding up, the bad losses start to outweigh the big wins.

And, in Duran's case, 10 years of greatness tend to get drug down by 20 years of mostly crap. That holds true for him and everyone else.

Just ask Roy Jones, who, after he beat Ruiz, was considered one of the very best ever. Now, after losses to Tarver, and Johnson, and Hopkins and Green and Lebedev and who knows who else coming up ... NOT SO MUCH. Because the bad performances are adding up.

Run arguably goes back to Ledwaba in 2001 IMO...but who's counting.

Good to see you around Dodge. You always liven things up.

[SBleeder]

If he'd continued fighting, and he lost 10 or 15 times, and quit after getting punched in the armpit by Monte Masters and quit because he had to take a **** ... and came in looking like a bowling ball until he was 50 ...and he continued to embarrass himself for decades ... yeah, you're damn right he wouldn't be rated as high.

Where do you rank Ezzard Charles P4P all time?

[Dubblechin]

Run arguably goes back to Ledwaba in 2001 IMO...but who's counting.

Good to see you around Dodge. You always liven things up.

Good to see you too, Cliff. It's been a very long time.

[crold1]

Good to see you too, Cliff. It's been a very long time.

Where you been bro?

[Dubblechin]

Where you been bro?

Everywhere but here I guess.