Sometimes I Wonder Why Did Roy Ever Waste His Time Fighting Fighters Like.....

[Toney616]

This is going to take a while and some of your responses here, quite frankly, caused me to roll my eyes a couple times . Bastard. Good chat though - I'll respond to this once my girlfriend leaves or I won't have one soon.

ps: nice chatting to you as well

[IMDAZED]

Whats you evidence for this claim?

He had three months to get down(Aug-sept-oct). Its easy to lose muscle. The only fighter I know of who claims otherwise is Jones.

Why would he get down

He was 200lbs solid muscle, not fat. You could've given him 3 years it still would've affected him.

[Toney616]

From 1994-2002? You mean to tell me the 2002 version of Nunn was better than Clinton Woods? I don't understand your point. If you're saying that overall, Nunn is a greater fighter, sure. I'd rather concentrate on when the fight could've been made. Just saying Nunn was greater is exactly the argument I'm talking about and why I raised the Alexander/Bruseles comparison.

I'm saying that 1997 Nunn> 2002 Woods

Woods record going into the Jones fight was padded as hell.

You believe he vacated his title to avoid his mandatory. I wholeheartedly disagree.

How can you?
1996

Jones admitting that he refused to fight Nunn in 96. They werent paying me enough money said the guy who would go on to fight Lucas for less money
1997

Seth Abraham:

Instead, he fractured the title further by giving his up rather than
defending it against No. 1 contender Michael Nunn, and then announced he would move up to the heavyweight division because he needed a
multimillion-dollar payday.

You're right, he didn't ask for an extension. Instead he offered to face the winner immediately. Which he did, against a southpaw with good skills - which is what we were debating.

As a champion of a sanctioning body you are entitled to certain options. One of them is the request that an unworthy challenger takes part in a elimination contest. Jones exercised that option when Tarver was his mando. I doubt if the IBF would of been lenient enough to allow him to exercise it again, against Harding. In other words he had to fight Harding or he would of been stripped. And it should be pointed out that he struggled in that fight

It was both actually, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

The HW division was going no where. There was nothing stopping him from fighting Tarver before he moved up. And slightly off topic Ruiz should never of accepted those terms form Roy.

You wrote all that to essentially say, Jones moved back to light heavyweight and fought Tarver.

If he was planning to stay at hw he would of arranged to fight his mandatory (Vitali-Tua). The big fights for him were at hw. Even if he refused to fight Tua and got stripped he could of fought Byrd or Holyfield

And he would've lost credibility my ass. Yeah some. But he would've lived through it, like Lennox did, Oscar did, damn near every top fighter who either avoided such rematches entirely or waited a few years to rekindle the idea. Regardless, that's neither here nor there. He did it.

Tarver had to live with the loss and that fact, all while forced to contend with having to file for bankruptcy. A major break came early in 2004, when WBC backed him in ordering an immediate rematch. HBO didn’t, instead siding with Roy in wanting a Hopkins rematch.

He would of also got stripped. But you are right Lewis and Co have lived it down

[Toney616]

Why would he get down

He was 200lbs solid muscle, not fat. You could've given him 3 years it still would've affected him.

Hauser

Two days before the fight, Ruiz weighed in at 226 pounds. Jones tipped the scales at 193 wearing an estimated three pounds of clothes. That was well above his previous high fighting weight of 175 pounds. But as conditioner Mackie Shilstone, who helped Jones prepare for Ruiz, explained, "Roy came to me at 192 pounds with 8.7 percent body fat. All we did was change the composition; bring his body fat down to six percent."

0.027 * 193 lbs= 5.21100 lbs of muscle

Mackie of course changed his story later on.

Jones camp for the Ruiz fight was only six weeks. If you watch the sweetscience documentary it shows you Roy in the gym a week into his camp and he looks really small. As I said before under optimum conditions you can put on around 6 lbs in 6 weeks. I'm told if you use roids you can put on around 1.4 lbs per week, which means he could of put on around 8.4 lbs.
Either way he couldnt of put on more than 8.5 lbs in a 6 week camp.
And when he weighed in with clothes on he was 193 lbs. Minus around 2-3 lbs for clothes and he was around the 190 lbs mark. Come fight night against Tarver he was 185 lbs. Thats a difference of 5 lbs

off the top of my head Eubank took the Calzaghe fight at 10 days notice-he was preparing for a lhw fight so as a guess he would of been around 190 when he got the call from Warren. He would of had to drop around 10 lbs to make weight for the smw limit. Say half of that weight was muscle. Thats 4 lbs of muscle in 10 days.

Tarver got down from 215 to 185 in eight weeks. Even if you say that half that weight was fat thats still 15 lbs of muscle. And it should be pointed out that losing muscle and fat is harder than just losing muscle.

Both of those guys had it much harder than Jones did and neither complain about permanent side effects

[IMDAZED]

I'm saying that 1997 Nunn> 2002 Woods

That's nice but the 1997 Nunn wasn't better than the 1997 Griffin and the 2002 Nunn wasn't better than the 2002 Woods.

Woods record going into the Jones fight was padded as hell.

Point still stands.

How can you?
1996

Jones admitting that he refused to fight Nunn in 96. They werent paying me enough money said the guy who would go on to fight Lucas for less money
1997

Seth Abraham:

Fair enough.

As a champion of a sanctioning body you are entitled to certain options. One of them is the request that an unworthy challenger takes part in a elimination contest. Jones exercised that option when Tarver was his mando. I doubt if the IBF would of been lenient enough to allow him to exercise it again, against Harding. In other words he had to fight Harding or he would of been stripped. And it should be pointed out that he struggled in that fight

It should also be pointed out that...regardless, he said he would fight the winner immediately and he did. It's so hilarious with you guys. Jones ducked this person because he didn't fight him and when he does fight that person, you say "oh, well umm he only did it because blah blah blah." Step back for a sec.

The HW division was going no where. There was nothing stopping him from fighting Tarver before he moved up. And slightly off topic Ruiz should never of accepted those terms form Roy.

He fought Tarver when he moved back down. Like really? This is what you're arguing? Did Tarver get worse or something in six months? No. His standing improved even more. And you're right about the terms for Ruiz. The funny thing is, I remember when Jones asked for those terms, everyone said he was ducking Ruiz! Funny how that works, right?

If he was planning to stay at hw he would of arranged to fight his mandatory (Vitali-Tua). The big fights for him were at hw. Even if he refused to fight Tua and got stripped he could of fought Byrd or Holyfield

You mean to tell me that the only reason he could stay at heavyweight for another fight was to fight his mandatory? Why? Because you say so? Really? BTW I think you may be wrong on who was the mandatory. In fact I'm pretty sure it was Hasim Rahman. Regardless, he stayed at HW because he wanted a fight with Holyfield or Tyson. And when he couldn't get the fights he wanted, he moved back down.

He would of also got stripped. But you are right Lewis and Co have lived it down

An immediate rematch offered by a sanctioning body? You have people who ignore immediate rematches in contracts, man! . Roy Jones could have done whatever the hell he wanted. He gave Tarver an immediate rematch. Is that what a ducker does? It's damned if you do, damned if you don't with him for some reason even though his resume is probably better than nearly everyone's favorite fighter. Let Roy live, man.

[IMDAZED]

Hauser


0.027 * 193 lbs= 5.21100 lbs of muscle

Mackie of course changed his story later on.

Jones camp for the Ruiz fight was only six weeks. If you watch the sweetscience documentary it shows you Roy in the gym a week into his camp and he looks really small. As I said before under optimum conditions you can put on around 6 lbs in 6 weeks. I'm told if you use roids you can put on around 1.4 lbs per week, which means he could of put on around 8.4 lbs.
Either way he couldnt of put on more than 8.5 lbs in a 6 week camp.
And when he weighed in with clothes on he was 193 lbs. Minus around 2-3 lbs for clothes and he was around the 190 lbs mark. Come fight night against Tarver he was 185 lbs. Thats a difference of 5 lbs

off the top of my head Eubank took the Calzaghe fight at 10 days notice-he was preparing for a lhw fight so as a guess he would of been around 190 when he got the call from Warren. He would of had to drop around 10 lbs to make weight for the smw limit. Say half of that weight was muscle. Thats 4 lbs of muscle in 10 days.

Tarver got down from 215 to 185 in eight weeks. Even if you say that half that weight was fat thats still 15 lbs of muscle. And it should be pointed out that losing muscle and fat is harder than just losing muscle.

Both of those guys had it much harder than Jones did and neither complain about permanent side effects

Come on man, don't stick to your point so hard you start making ridiculous arguments. One, Jones was up to 199 on the HBO official scorecard. Two, the the comparison to Tarver moving up to 215 is silly. Most of Tarver's weight was fat. He bulked up for a fake fight, not a real one. And even if it wasn't fat, it sure didn't look like cutting the weight for the Hopkins bout helped, now did it? In ANY case...Roy Jones was going on 35, had 50 professional fights, hundreds of amateur fights and was at the end of his rope. Moving back down in weight - two divisions - didn't help. Taking the punishment he took from Tarver in that first fight, sealed the deal.

[qcd]

It's the reason he doesnt make my top 30 of all time list,as discussed in an earlier thread

[Toney616]

That's nice but the 1997 Nunn wasn't better than the 1997 Griffin and the 2002 Nunn wasn't better than the 2002 Woods.

I said from 95-02 Jones only beat three guys better than lhw Nunn. My list was: Johnson, Griffin and Harding

Clinton Woods was your typical euro fighter with a padded record. In terms of skills he was nothing special. Dude lost to David Starie. Calzaghe gets no props for beating Starie, Woods lost to him. Woods at best was a B level fighter. His only win of note was a sd win over Glen Johnson.

It should also be pointed out that...regardless

Tarver would tell the story of how Roy wrote a letter to the IBF claiming that Antonio was not worthy of being named mandatory, that he should be forced to partake in an elimination bout before receiving a title shot.

He did it hoping to get out of fighting Tarver.

He fought Tarver when he moved back down.

Look at Jones options at hw. They were all high risk options, more high risk than a fight with Tarver. He had a choice try to hold onto his hw belt by fighting Tua or get a belt back at lhw. He choose the option that involved less risk. And as I pointed out Jones was hopking that Griffin would beat Tarver to become the undisputed champion.

he stayed at HW because he wanted a fight with Holyfield or Tyson. And when he couldn't get the fights he wanted, he moved back down.

What I'm saying is where is the evidence to suggest that he kept the weight on, apart from Jones saying so?
He was never going to get Holyfield because of his and Kings ridiculous terms

He was never going to get Tyson either, because Tyson had made it clear in 99 that he was never going to fight for King again.

An immediate rematch offered by a sanctioning body?

Didn't you say yourself that Jones loved his belts.

[Toney616]

One, Jones was up to 199 on the HBO official scorecard.

This is Jones one week into his camp for Ruiz
[IMG]//i987.***********.com/albums/ae354/ironmike-/threads/vlcsnap-2011-07-02-13h02m37s206.png[/IMG]
There is no way that guy is putting on that much weight in another 5 weeks

The official weigh in
[IMG]//i987.***********.com/albums/ae354/ironmike-/threads/vlcsnap-2011-07-02-13h04m21s29.png[/IMG]
He weighed in at 193. Which is the most he could of possibly done in the time period

unofficial weigh in
[IMG]//i987.***********.com/albums/ae354/ironmike-/threads/vlcsnap-2011-07-02-13h05m35s4.png[/IMG]
Their is nothing stopping him from putting weights in his pocket to make it seem like he was heavier than he really was

You have two choices
one:
Jones and Mackie are telling the truth
The laws of nature dont apply to Jones

Two
Jones and Mackie are lying
The laws of nature apply to everyone

Two, the the comparison to Tarver moving up to 215 is silly. Most of Tarver's weight was fat.

He put on 30 lbs. As I said before say 50% of it was fat, or even 60%, it doesn't matter, burning fat and muscle is harder than burning just muscle.

And even if it wasn't fat, it sure didn't look like cutting the weight for the Hopkins bout helped, now did it?

He had outgrown the lhw division and should of moved up post Jones III. Either way he was fine post Hopkins, just like Jones was fine post Tarver I. He looked fine during the first round of their fight.

If you are getting dropped by a straight left from De valle it only stands to reason that turning into a punch from a bigger fighter, like Tarver will at least drop you

In ANY case...Roy Jones was going on 35

Its not hard to burn muscle even at that age. Johnson was 42 when he dropped down to fight Green on short notice

Moving back down in weight - two divisions - didn't help.

When ever a fighter with a big ego loses a fight they make up excuses for why the loss doesn't really matter. Toney's was weight loss and so is Jones

Taking the punishment he took from Tarver in that first fight, sealed the deal.

It is what Jones did AFTER the weigh in for Tarver I that messed him up

[IMDAZED]

I said from 95-02 Jones only beat three guys better than lhw Nunn. My list was: Johnson, Griffin and Harding

Clinton Woods was your typical euro fighter with a padded record. In terms of skills he was nothing special. Dude lost to David Starie. Calzaghe gets no props for beating Starie, Woods lost to him. Woods at best was a B level fighter. His only win of note was a sd win over Glen Johnson.



He did it hoping to get out of fighting Tarver.

Look at Jones options at hw. They were all high risk options, more high risk than a fight with Tarver. He had a choice try to hold onto his hw belt by fighting Tua or get a belt back at lhw. He choose the option that involved less risk. And as I pointed out Jones was hopking that Griffin would beat Tarver to become the undisputed champion.

What I'm saying is where is the evidence to suggest that he kept the weight on, apart from Jones saying so?
He was never going to get Holyfield because of his and Kings ridiculous terms

He was never going to get Tyson either, because Tyson had made it clear in 99 that he was never going to fight for King again.

Didn't you say yourself that Jones loved his belts.

I think we're going in circles here. And your injecting a lot of opinion into the facts. Your opinion is that Jones avoided Nunn and that he avoided Tarver by moving up to heavyweight and then moving back down and fighting him twice? I don't agree with you.