Rating Frazier

[JAB5239]

Where amongst heavyweight greats do you rank Joe Frazier and why?

I rate him 12th and can't justify putting him any higher even though I would like to. Thoughts?


12. frazier
11. Dempsey
10. Marciano
9. Holyfield
8. Liston
7. Tyson
6. Foreman
5. Lewis
4. Johnson
3. Holmes
2. Ali
1. Louis

[CarlosG815]

Where amongst heavyweight greats do you rank Joe Frazier and why?

I rate him 12th and can't justify putting him any higher even though I would like to. Thoughts?


12. frazier
11. Dempsey
10. Marciano
9. Holyfield
8. Liston
7. Tyson
6. Foreman
5. Lewis
4. Johnson
3. Holmes
2. Ali
1. Louis

Lewis at 5, Frazier at 12. You say you can't justify placing him higher than 12, so how in the hell can you explain that one?

[Steak]

I think Ken Norton is more interesting to try and rate.

arguably has 2 wins over Ali, and a win over Holmes...

thats..pretty damn good. and thats not even taking into account his other good wins.

but then you have that whole getting KOed early by the hardest punchers of all time thing...

[crold1]

I had him 7th: //krikya360.com/-top-25-h...top-ten--26161

7) Joe Frazier (1965-81)
Record: 32-4-1, 27 KO
World Champion 1970-73, 4 Defenses
NYSAC Titlist 1968-70, 5 Defenses
Heavyweight Titlists/Champions Faced – 2: (Jimmy Ellis, Muhammad Ali, George Foreman)

The 1964 U.S. Olympic Gold Medalist, Frazier injured his left arm as a kid, leaving a permanent crook as a sign of things to come. Frazier, behind a pressuring bob and weave style, would find only a single foe in his prime who could handle the heat. Turning pro in August 1965, he reeled off eleven straight knockouts and wasted little time in accelerating his competition. The last stoppage in the early streak came against veteran Billy Daniels, his next contest a rugged test in September 1966 against Oscar Bonavena. Dropped twice in round two, Frazier worked his way back into the fight and left with a close split decision. Frazier followed with two more veterans, Eddie Machen and Doug Jones, stopping them in ten and six respectively. Three fights later it was steel-chinned former title challenger George Chuvalo, Frazier becoming the first man to stop him in over sixty fights in round four, his career less than two years old. With Muhammad Ali stripped of the Heavyweight title in most states, and by the WBA, during his controversy with the draft, the young Frazier found himself excluded from the WBA tournament to anoint a successor. Instead, he was matched in March 1968 with former amateur rival Buster Mathis Sr. for the vacant honors under the au****es of the New York State Athletic Commission (NYSAC). Frazier battered Mathis, stopping him in eleven, and the drum roll to unification began. Making four defenses of the NYSAC claim, including a decision in the Bonavena rematch and a seventh round Fight of the Year stop of contender Jerry Quarry (his first stoppage loss), a confrontation with WBA titlist Jimmy Ellis became a must. Ali retired, fully relinquishing his claim to the crown on February 1, 1970, and on February 16 Frazier stormed through Ellis in five rounds. Ali, who had attempted to return to the ring and fight Frazier at various times in the previous three years, finally secured a chance to re-enter the sport in October 1970, bringing a confrontation between the two a step closer. In November, Frazier met Light Heavyweight champion Bob Foster, obliterating him in less than four minutes of action. Then it was on to March 8, 1971, and a “Fight of the Century” which just might have been. In fifteen grueling, violent rounds, both Ali and Frazier took the measure of the other. Frazier survived a vicious round nine to hurt Ali badly in the eleventh, drop him in the fifteenth, and secure the decision for his greatest victory. It was the peak of his career and, following a hospital stay to recover, Frazier took a couple of soft touch defenses before agreeing to face a young George Foreman in January 1973. In a surprising defeat at the time, Foreman dropped Frazier six times and had the title in round two. Joe bounced back six months later with a decision over Joe Bugner and agreed to a rematch with Ali in January, 1974. In another competitive affair, Frazier would lose a unanimous decision in twelve. Two more wins, rematch stoppages of Quarry and Ellis, followed while Ali regained the crown from Foreman. With some believing Joe to be past it, the rubber match was set for October 1975 in Manila, Philippines. Joe was anything but slipped that night, he and Ali engaging in a brutal war for fourteen rounds before Joe was forced to retire in the corner, his eyes and face a swollen mass. There would be only two more fights, a rematch loss to Foreman in June 1976 where Frazier improved his performance but still folded in the fifth and an ill advised 1981 draw with Jumbo Cummings that pushed Frazier back into a retirement he’d already been enjoying.

Why He’s Here: Standing less than six foot and less than 210 lbs. in his prime, Frazier’s smothering body attacks and vicious left hook allowed him to get inside of taller men and inflict damage through most of his career. Like Marciano, it could be argued that timing aided Frazier’s rise to the title. The argument has been made that, had Ali not been forced politically out of the scene, Frazier would not have had the same chances. It might be true. Ali had all but run out of ready, quality challengers by 1967 and Frazier may have received a shot before he was at the peak of his powers. It might also be hogwash. The styles of Ali and Frazier mixed so naturally it’s just as easy to assume they always would have been destined for more than one confrontation. While Ali had been off, Frazier’s performance in 1971 came against a fighter who could still dance and whose speed had not faltered. It was Frazier’s punches that brought him off his toes and his ability to take savage blows in exchange that won the fight. No other Heavyweight active then could have beaten that Ali. Ali had shown in 1965, against George Chuvalo, that a pressure fighter could do that, force him to work for long stretches in the trenches. Chuvalo was never what Joe was by late 1967 forward. And Frazier was more than the Ali rivalry, his string of quality victims an impressive array of skilled pugilists in the deep waters of late 1960s and 70s Heavyweights. The failures against Foreman, and the fact that he ultimately lost the series to Ali, put him behind those men but not far behind other great Heavyweights who didn’t have to contend with those monstrous talents. The first and third Ali fights may be the two greatest Heavyweight fights of all time, in whichever order, and the third is remarkable when one considers Frazier was also dealing with cataracts which obscured his vision. Frazier was an inaugural member of the IBHOF in 1990.

[StarshipTrooper]

I have Frazier ranked at 11 just behind Tyson...Tyson's edge in chin the deciding factor.

Oh, and for the record, Norton does NOT have a win over Holmes: Norton has a decision LOSS to Holmes in a fight that wasn't quite as close as the scorecards would have you believe.

Poet

[crold1]

I have Frazier ranked at 11 just behind Tyson...Tyson's edge in chin the deciding factor.

Oh, and for the record, Norton does NOT have a win over Holmes: Norton has a decision LOSS to Holmes in a fight that wasn't quite as close as the scorecards would have you believe.

Poet

Holmes won 9 rounds...minimum. Norton's name got him some love. GREAT fight though.

[StarshipTrooper]

Holmes won 9 rounds...minimum. Norton's name got him some love. GREAT fight though.

Absolutely a great fight, one of the best Heavyweight fights I've seen. A close fight sure, but not as close as people keep making out, insinuating Norton somehow got robbed. It has more to do with their disdain for Holmes than anything else. Either that or they're clueless as to how to score a fight. Probably Holmes hate though.

Poet

[DarkTerror88]

9.) Holmes
8.) Marciano
7.) Liston
6.) Dempsey
5.) Frazier
4.) Foreman
3.) Johnson
2.) Ali
1.) Louis

[cja07007]

Where amongst heavyweight greats do you rank Joe Frazier and why?

I rate him 12th and can't justify putting him any higher even though I would like to. Thoughts?


12. frazier
11. Dempsey
10. Marciano
9. Holyfield
8. Liston
7. Tyson
6. Foreman
5. Lewis
4. Johnson
3. Holmes
2. Ali
1. Louis

This list is pritty much as I see it. I don't want to rate Lewis that high but I think its the right place for him. I will say that Joe is my favorite fighter on my list even if he cant be put as the greats.

[IronDanHamza]

I have him #10 at the moment. A short while ago I had him at #7 but I have him back at #10 now.

I think #10, #11, #12 is the most realistic place for Joe IMO.