If Tyson didn't lose to Douglas would he have self-destructed and lost soon after?

[ROSS CALIFORNIA]

Your thoughts?

Dude, he was going down hill BEFORE Douglas, thats why he lost in the first place. If you seen that fight, and didn't notice he wasn't fighting at 100%, then you are clueless.

[SBleeder]

Ali was almost beaten by Doug Jones and Henry Cooper both of whom were Between C+-B class fighters, so this arguemnet doesnt hold much water.


On topic he was already self destructing before he left Team Tyson, when I finish my Ali threads, ill do some threads about Tyson which show what was going on in his life during that time.

When did I say anything about Ali? Paranoid?

My point was that Tyson was far from unbeatable as so many think he was; he would have lost against a fighter as good as Holyfield, self-destruction or not.

Cooper and Jones, BTW, would whip almost anyone Tyson fought. And Ali was not "almost beaten" by Cooper.

[Scott9945]

I believe he still would have self destructed, but something changed in his style after he ditched Rooney and went with the black panther training regime. He just wasn't very good anymore. Holyfield, at any point in his career, could not beat Mike Tyson when Mike Tyson was at his best - he just isn't good enough.

Even with Tyson's no defense, come forward, head hunting style, he was still able to massacre those that he fought after prison, and still beat guys like Ruddock after ditching Rooney.

I think after accomplishing so much you stop caring after so long, esp when you're screwed by people in the industry, you kind of begin to resent what you do.

It happens to a lot of fighters, Naseem Hamed was one of them. People knew he was done caring before he even fought Bungu.

Please explain the "black panther training regime". Are you really talking about Aaron Snowell and Jay Bright?

[BattlingNelson]

Tyson was on a path of selfdestruction. It may or may not be related to manager Jim Jacobs death. Co-manager Bill Cayton just didn't have the same influence on Tyson. Also Tyson being exploited by Robin Givens and Ruth Roper was incidents that pushed Tyson off track. It somehow became evident that Cus D'amato and later Jacobs, was able to control the vulcano that was in Tyson and transform that energy into hard and dedicated training and fighting.

I remember Larry Holmes before he fought Tyson, said that he, Tyson, was the kind of person that would self-destruct or die in prison. That looks like a prophecy now with the benefit of hindsight.

[CarlosG815]

Please explain the "black panther training regime". Are you really talking about Aaron Snowell and Jay Bright?

The entourage of black supremacist's that he surrounded himself with, who believed there was a "man" trying to keep the "black man" down. Tyson believed in the illuminati and those idea's don't just plant themselves.

And as Teddy Atlas called him "Jay Dimm" because he wasn't a good trainer and was only thought to be so because of Tyson. Those guys weren't boxing trainers. A lot of people give Teddy Atlas crap but when when you listen to the way he speaks about people he surrounded himself with, and guys like Jay Dimm, it's hard to argue. He makes perfect sense.

I'll take Teddy's word over your's, Scott, sorry.

[Scott9945]

The entourage of black supremacist's that he surrounded himself with, who believed there was a "man" trying to keep the "black man" down. Tyson believed in the illuminati and those idea's don't just plant themselves.

And as Teddy Atlas called him "Jay Dimm" because he wasn't a good trainer and was only thought to be so because of Tyson. Those guys weren't boxing trainers. A lot of people give Teddy Atlas crap but when when you listen to the way he speaks about people he surrounded himself with, and guys like Jay Dimm, it's hard to argue. He makes perfect sense.

I'll take Teddy's word over your's, Scott, sorry.

All I asked you was if you were including Bright and Snowell among your list of "black panthers" (an obsolete term from 40 years ago really). And I'm still waiting for an answer. I also wasn't implying that I thought the two of them were quality trainers.

[Toney616]

When did I say anything about Ali? Paranoid?

Just because a fighter has competitive fights with C+ to B+ fighters, doesn't mean they cannot beat A class fighters. I used Ali as a example of that, he had close fights with Cooper and Jones but was also able to beat elite fighters. In other words your logic is flawed. Hopkins and Toney also springs to mind they both barely beat journeyman fighters like Mercado and Tiberi, but they both could beat elite fighters.

My point was that Tyson was far from unbeatable as so many think he was; he would have lost against a fighter as good as Holyfield, self-destruction or not.

No fighter is unbeatable, Tyson would definitely have had a good chance against that Holyfield, who went life and death with Bert "the journeyman" Cooper as well.

Cooper and Jones, BTW, would whip almost anyone Tyson fought.

Cooper at best was on the same level as Frank Bruno, Doug Jones was around the same level as Thomas.

. And Ali was not "almost beaten" by Cooper.

Dude almost got koed, I would say that was almost beaten

[Emon723]

June 18, 1990, the exact date where Tyson and Holyfield were supposed to face each other, from 1991 and beyond, Holy beats Tyson but in 1990, let's say Tyson took the fight with Douglas seriously and won, it would have been interesting, 38-0 Tyson vs 23-0 Holyfield.

And if Tyson won, the other "dream fight" would took place as well.

TYSON VS FOREMAN.

[Miburo]

He was already slipping, it was inevitable.

[CarlosG815]

Dude, he was going down hill BEFORE Douglas, thats why he lost in the first place. If you seen that fight, and didn't notice he wasn't fighting at 100%, then you are clueless.

Yes, he was on the slide. He did not look himself in his fight with Bruno. He was not training hard in the gym and his technique was garbage.