James Toney vs Marvin Hagler @ 160

[JAB5239]

i was just citing his biggest fights.add that he brawled with hearns and you have 3 fights.point being,if he fights the wrong way against toney,its lights out

Brawling with Hearns could never be called fighting Hearns fight as he was much more effective as a boxer. If anything Hagler got Hearns to play into HIS hands.

according to you hagler is 5'7.if thats true then he has absolutely no shot

Tell that to Montell Griffin.

[Greatest1942]

Well then no one with height disadvantage has won ever right? Toney is not 6'6 or something nor has he any great reach advantage.

[Barn]

Barbados Joe Walcott!

"The bigger they are the harder they fall" - Barbados

[wpink1]

Close fight...Hagler never beats a leonard. But he also had problems vs Duran. While he won the fight, he was not dominante, and duran was not the same duran at lightweight or welter. That was when Hagler was 28-29. Styles makes fights. Hagler vs a peak Toney, could be very interesting. If toney elects to exchange toe to toe, then its hagler easily, but if he uses his good boxing and good defense, I think if Duran could cause hagler these problems, then so can Toney if he uses the correct style and comes in focused and in top shape

[Steak]

James Toney had problems with Reggie Johnson at 160lbs, and hes probably the most comparable fighter that Toney fought.

great fight, and great matchup. Id think of it along the lines of a McCallum-Toney 1...Haglers jab was outstanding, and it would have been a technically flawless fight, with still plenty of damage being done.

Close, competitive fight(assuming Toney is at his best), but Hagler would be able to slightly outjab him and be more consistant over the fight, while Toney fights more in burts.

I see neither of them being knocked out or even hurt, even though powerful punches would be landing.

[JAB5239]

Close fight...Hagler never beats a leonard.

I've seen you mention this several times my friend. If Hagler had started out in his natural fighting stance or it had been 15 rounds, you don't think he could have taken the fight with Leonard? He didn't win, but I certainly think he could have had he done a few things different. Its not like the fight was a blowout.

By the way, nice to see you posting back in the history section.

[BennyST]

Hagler by close UD or late stoppage(corner retirement or cuts)

It would be a good fight and Toney would have good moments and bag a few early rounds but, Hagler would turn on the gas and throw lots of accuarte punches and grind Toney down winning by either way stated above.

15 ROUNDS - TKO Hagler
12 ROUNDS - Close UD Hagler

Just no. No, no, no.

There isn't a fighter at MW that stops Toney unless it's a very lucky, super punch by some monster Julian-Jackson-like puncher, which Hagler is most definitely not. As BlackIrish said, Johnson gave him some trouble and dropped him, and it was about as perfect a shot as you could land. Very hard punch right on the point of the chin. Toney was hurt but got up quickly and recovered very quickly.

Hagler, while brilliant, is never going to be the guy to stop Toney. Didn't have enough power and wouldn't pressure enough to grind him down to a stoppage. I don't think there is a fighter that could grind Toney down to the point of stopping him. He is, alongside everything else, one of the toughest guys to ever step into the ring bar none. Just like Hagler. He (Hagler) would probably win in my opinion but the fight would never end in anything resembling a stoppage and would be very close.

I mean, when was he ever cut enough for you to think it would end that way? When was he hit enough that you think he would get stopped?

Sorry man, but that outcome is one of the few that would never happen. The one thing I'd bet my house on would be that neither guy gets stopped. Toney has too good a defense outside and inside to get hit much at all, let alone stopped because of it, and it would be a Hagler win through activity and Toney taking too much time off. Toney could win it if he's really on the ball and fights perfectly, but I do see Hagler sneaking this one in a very tactical, tough, close fight.

Toney would be just as strong late fight, though less active maybe, but his will was incredibly strong so he's certainly not going to wilt under pressure. It probably wouldn't even be a pressure fight from Hagler anyway. That would open him up too much to Toney's counters and would the one way of giving Toney the fight.

Also, someone mentioned something about Leonard....Toney fights nothing like Leonard. Not even a little bit.

[wpink1]

I've seen you mention this several times my friend. If Hagler had started out in his natural fighting stance or it had been 15 rounds, you don't think he could have taken the fight with Leonard? He didn't win, but I certainly think he could have had he done a few things different. Its not like the fight was a blowout.

By the way, nice to see you posting back in the history section.

I think that you have several things working with that fight that fans of the other seem to forget.

1. You bring up a good point. Yes had hagler started out in southpaw stance he would have posed more issues for ray but , what peopel forget is that Ray one each round that he moved laterall which coincided with when he had stamina to do so. I think had hagler been southpaw from the start, Ray would have still won, as you saw ray landing counters (soft) and sticking and moving even after hagler turned southpaw. By no means was I impressed as I still to this day, thought that was a fight that neither were top, but....

2. Hagler fans who suggest that Ray waited til hagler slipped...Wow is this so with our merit. Somehow these fans remember one side of things. Hagler was only 32, fighting roughly once per 10 months, and just came off his best 2 wins by ko. He never looked bad in those fights, he simply fought a undefeated very good at the time the beast Mugabi. What was Mugabi supposed to do, laydown. Hagler kept on backing him up, yes he was getting his and outboxed a bit at times,,but this happened much earlier in hagler's career to, with Duran, and he had issues the first time with Antefermo. Maybe it is Like Dundee said, Hagler is the worlds best straight ahead, but he has to step then throw, the slightest movement or angle throws Hagler off.

I studied that fight repeteadly, and what Dundee said is correct even vs Duran. It is so visable is is painfully obvsious that a Peak Leoanrd, who could move the entire fight, or fight the entire fight with out getting winded, would be faster, more accurate, not 5 years worth of rust, and have stamina. You look at Hagler he had set and reset every time ray simply went back and forth, not giving him a set angle. Styles makes fights, and I simply have never seen hagler beat that style, or cut off a ring, which he did not in their fight.

I do think that Hagler is a much better middleweight than Ray, would beat more middleweights than Ray would, but Ray's style vs Hagler IMO, poses Hagler simply with a style that removes him of his great abilities.

[sonnyboyx2]

Toney would take care of Hagler in this match-up, Toney was far better than Antuofermo who Hagler drew with, Toney was also far superior than anyother opponent of Hagler's and i see this fight being very similar to Toney vs McCallum with Toney just edging it on points

[JAB5239]

I think that you have several things working with that fight that fans of the other seem to forget.

1. You bring up a good point. Yes had hagler started out in southpaw stance he would have posed more issues for ray but , what peopel forget is that Ray one each round that he moved laterall which coincided with when he had stamina to do so. I think had hagler been southpaw from the start, Ray would have still won, as you saw ray landing counters (soft) and sticking and moving even after hagler turned southpaw. By no means was I impressed as I still to this day, thought that was a fight that neither were top, but....

2. Hagler fans who suggest that Ray waited til hagler slipped...Wow is this so with our merit. Somehow these fans remember one side of things. Hagler was only 32, fighting roughly once per 10 months, and just came off his best 2 wins by ko. He never looked bad in those fights, he simply fought a undefeated very good at the time the beast Mugabi. What was Mugabi supposed to do, laydown. Hagler kept on backing him up, yes he was getting his and outboxed a bit at times,,but this happened much earlier in hagler's career to, with Duran, and he had issues the first time with Antefermo. Maybe it is Like Dundee said, Hagler is the worlds best straight ahead, but he has to step then throw, the slightest movement or angle throws Hagler off.

I studied that fight repeteadly, and what Dundee said is correct even vs Duran. It is so visable is is painfully obvsious that a Peak Leoanrd, who could move the entire fight, or fight the entire fight with out getting winded, would be faster, more accurate, not 5 years worth of rust, and have stamina. You look at Hagler he had set and reset every time ray simply went back and forth, not giving him a set angle. Styles makes fights, and I simply have never seen hagler beat that style, or cut off a ring, which he did not in their fight.

I do think that Hagler is a much better middleweight than Ray, would beat more middleweights than Ray would, but Ray's style vs Hagler IMO, poses Hagler simply with a style that removes him of his great abilities.

I don't entirely agree with you, but you make some excellent and valid points. Glad you're back!