Did Rid**** Bowe Duck Lennox Lewis?

[garryd]

Every man and his dogs knows Bowe wanted no part of Lewis ...for fcuk sake why are we even arguing this

[CiganoBoxer]

I thought it common knowledge that Rid**** Bowe duck Lennox

[mickey malone]

From my understanding of events Bowe was never a King fighter, his manager was Newman and his promoter was Lou Duv

My bad, I shouldn't have put him on the same list with McCall, Tucker and Butler.. And forgive me for using the name Bowe when at times i should have said Newman, because it was actually Rock Newman who gave the WBC the finger inorder to AVOID/DUCK doing business with King..

again my understanding of the events are very different to yours. King had nothing to do with the negotiations, Newman wanted the fight to be split 90/10 in Bowes favour which killed the fight. So the WBC stripped him off the belt.

But Sulaiman who is virtually a siamese twin to King, was involved in the negotiations..

How does giving up a belt, break a contract with King?

I said, "Rid himself of King".. In other words, 'Not sign a contract with the WBC in order to avoid doing business with King and Sulaiman'..

The only agreement fighter have with sanctioning bodies is that:
1: They give 1-2% of their purse to the sanctioning body everytime they defend the belt
2: They fight a mandatory challenger at least once per year

So where did all Tim Witherspoon's purses go then?

Those were voluntary defences not mandatories

That coincidently, had nothing to do with King: easy defenses with no fear of gettig ripped-off..

Lewis was awarded the belt after Bowe was stripped, he defended his belt against Tucker. Which is why thier purse was split 75/25 in Lewis favour

Yeah, i think you're right.. I think the WBC post-humorously declared that the Ruddock fight was for the belt or something like that.. Probably King's way of trying to make Lewis feel a bit better about himself after retrieving it from the bin lol.

He could of challenged for the belt, im sure the WBC would of loved to get a share of the purse that fight would have generated

But the feeling was mutual.. Bowe didn't want any part of being stiffed by King who is the 'Frontman' for the WBC..

My conclusion- Bowe stopped that fight from happening

Yes, but to avoid Don King, not Lennox Lewis..

The mere presence of the fact that King was lurking in the background, and the fact that Newman and King was a massive clash of ego's, scuppered any chance of the fight being made, and Bowe went along with all of this..

I'll change my conclusion to:- The WBC tried to price themselves out of it..

And from your point of view (which is also correct) so did Newman, but the fight never happened, specifically due to King's cut (involvement) which Sulaiman would have been negotiating for.. Newman and Bowe would have signed in a flash if the contract had, 'Lou Duva Promotions' stamped all over it..

Have you read 'Boxing Confidential' by Jim Brady? (Milo Books).. It gives a hell of a lot of insight into this and many other board room disputes, as well as the corruption within the sport.. It's a very interesting read, and dedicates seperate chapters to each sanctioning body, none more so than the shadey dealings of the WBC..

[Toney616]

My bad, I shouldn't have put him on the same list with McCall, Tucker and Butler.. And forgive me for using the name Bowe when at times i should have said Newman, because it was actually Rock Newman who gave the WBC the finger inorder to AVOID/DUCK doing business with King..

I still dont understand this, Bowe would have been paying sanctioning fees to the WBC from day one so he can be ranked by them and hopefully work his way into getting a title shot. Now he doesnt want to pay sanctioning fees to avoid doing business with King? the only way King could of got his fingers into Bowe was through Newman who wanted nothing to do with King

But Sulaiman who is virtually a siamese twin to King, was involved in the negotiations..

In what capacity? Kings influence is felt through the WBC mainly thorugh how his fighters are ranked

I said, "Rid himself of King".. In other words, 'Not sign a contract with the WBC in order to avoid doing business with King and Sulaiman'..

He had already entered into an agreement with the WBC, he signed a contract which stated that he had to fight the winner of Ruddock and Lewis.

So where did all Tim Witherspoon's purses go then?

That was due to the shady contract he sined with King and his son carl before he was ever a champion. Even if he was never a WBC champ he still would of gotten ripped off

That coincidently, had nothing to do with King: easy defenses with no fear of gettig ripped-off..

He was never under the King banner, Lewis never wanted anything to do with King either. The only time King had anything to do with him was when Lewis fought a King fighter. Holyfield also wanted nothing to do with King but gave him options so he could fight Tyson. Being a WBC champion is not the same a s being a king fighter

Yeah, i think you're right.. I think the WBC post-humorously declared that the Ruddock fight was for the belt or something like that.. Probably King's way of trying to make Lewis feel a bit better about himself after retrieving it from the bin lol.

Lewis never a King fighter, his manager was Maloney and his promoter was Duva (I think)

But the feeling was mutual.. Bowe didn't want any part of being stiffed by King who is the 'Frontman' for the WBC.

In the early 90's the rankings for the WBC looked like this:
Holyfield Champion
1 vacant
2 Bowe
3 Ruddock
4 Lewis

The WBC told Bowe to fight Ruddok for the no 1 position, Bowe agreed but got cold feet and so he pulled out of the fight. Ruddock was then bumped to no 1, Holyfield didnt want to fight Ruddock either. The WBC tried to strip him, but he won the court case. The agreements they came to was that Holyfield could fight Bowe and the winner of Holyfield Bowe would then fight the winner of Lewis Ruddock. Lewis then koes the man Bowe was afriad to face and the rest is history

Yes, but to avoid Don King, not Lennox Lewis..

How does defending the WBC belt make you a King fighter?
King also has a lot of influence with the other bodies as well, you should watch the documentary called the Dark side of boxing, its on Youtube

specifically due to King's cut (involvement) which Sulaiman would have been negotiating for..

Sanctioning bodies get 1-2% of a fighters purse, there was no cut for King

Newman and Bowe would have signed in a flash if the contract had, 'Lou Duva Promotions' stamped all over it..

I think you are getting sanctioning bodies confused with promoters. Bowe signed with TVKO promotions and later on he signed with Duva

Have you read 'Boxing Confidential' by Jim Brady? (Milo Books).. It gives a hell of a lot of insight into this and many other board room disputes, as well as the corruption within the sport.. It's a very interesting read, and dedicates seperate chapters to each sanctioning body, none more so than the shadey dealings of the WBC..[/COLOR]

Thanks for the heads up, ill check it out when I get the chance

[mickey malone]

I still dont understand this, Bowe would have been paying sanctioning fees to the WBC from day one so he can be ranked by them and hopefully work his way into getting a title shot. Now he doesnt want to pay sanctioning fees to avoid doing business with King? the only way King could of got his fingers into Bowe was through Newman who wanted nothing to do with King

He may have been paying WBC sanctioning fees but he wasn't fighting their contenders..

In what capacity? Kings influence is felt through the WBC mainly thorugh how his fighters are ranked

As "The Humble Servant of Boxing".. That's what he has the cheek to call himself lol.

He had already entered into an agreement with the WBC, he signed a contract which stated that he had to fight the winner of Ruddock and Lewis.

If that were the case, then surely he would have been sued for breach of contract?

That was due to the shady contract he sined with King and his son carl before he was ever a champion. Even if he was never a WBC champ he still would of gotten ripped off

Witherspoon was made to sign 3 contracts, with one of them being left blank.. Yes, he really was that ******.

He was never under the King banner, Lewis never wanted anything to do with King either. The only time King had anything to do with him was when Lewis fought a King fighter. Holyfield also wanted nothing to do with King but gave him options so he could fight Tyson. Being a WBC champion is not the same a s being a king fighter

True, King fighters were managed by Carl King who acted as a smokescreen for Don King.. There's a difference between wanting and having nothing to do with King.. Lewis was always loyal to the WBC.

Lewis never a King fighter, his manager was Maloney and his promoter was Duva (I think)

Panos Eliades was Lewis promoter at the time.

The WBC told Bowe to fight Ruddok for the no 1 position, Bowe agreed but got cold feet and so he pulled out of the fight. Ruddock was then bumped to no 1, Holyfield didnt want to fight Ruddock either. The WBC tried to strip him, but he won the court case. The agreements they came to was that Holyfield could fight Bowe and the winner of Holyfield Bowe would then fight the winner of Lewis Ruddock. Lewis then koes the man Bowe was afriad to face and the rest is history

Bowe not facing Ruddock, I do believe was a duck, but he went looking for a WBA eliminator with Pierre Coetzer instead, once again, avoiding the WBC (as well as all the best contenders). Razor was seriously avoided at the time, and Lewis deserves a lot of credit for stepping up to the plate.

How does defending the WBC belt make you a King fighter?
King also has a lot of influence with the other bodies as well, you should watch the documentary called the Dark side of boxing, its on Youtube

It doesn't, but Newman knew it wouldn't be long before they'd have to face one of King's fighters.
King's influences over the other sanctioning bodies, don't have a lifetime's history of double dealings and affinities with the President.. That's why King's fighters don't appear as high on their lists.
Thanks, I will get round to checking out 'The Dark Side of Boxing'

Sanctioning bodies get 1-2% of a fighters purse, there was no cut for King

And Newman made sure of it.

I think you are getting sanctioning bodies confused with promoters. Bowe signed with TVKO promotions and later on he signed with Duva of it.

If you mean, getting King confused with the WBC, then no i'm not..
It's a confusing topic which ever way you look at it.. I don't know much about TVKO Promotions, but i'd bet a pound to a pinch of salt that they're totally King-proof..

Thanks for the heads up, ill check it out when I get the chance

Here's a few paragraph's, just to wet you're appetite:-

In 1992, Rid**** Bowe outpointed Evander Holyfield to win the undisputed heavyweight championship. King and Sulaiman now had a new problem to deal with, Rock Newman.
Newman was a short, stumpy ex-radio newsman from Washington D.C., who became an insufferable egomaniac. Not only would he be involved in two boxing riots, on national TV, he flagrantly pushed pushed Ray Mercer's manager and called him a 'coward.' Newman was a racist too. His extravagant display of black pride and occasional dashiki came mostly from the fact that he suffered from a terrible lack of identity. He was the product from a mixed marriage, and up close, people were shocked to see that this 'angry black man' was almost pink. Newman talked a good game, but for all his self proclaimed racial pride, he had no trouble sending Dwight Qawi to South Africa during height of Apartheid.
Newman got into boxing by covering it and was smart enough to ignore the conventional wisdom on Rid**** Bowe, that he had was 'lazy' and had 'no heart.' Knowing Sulaiman's ties to King, Newman knew it was impossible for Bowe to fight for the WBC. Bowe then infuriated Sulaiman by publicly dumping the WBC championship belt in the garbage. "Go in and get it," he challenged Lennox Lewis, who had stopped him in the 1988 Seoul Olympics. Instead of fighting for the WBC, Bowe hammered former King fieldhand Michael Dokes, who lasted just one round.
Trying to set up a line of succession and get those sanction fees flowing again, Sulaiman, in a rare departure from King, suddenly annointed Lennox Lewis as the WBC champ after he had battered Razor Ruddock in 2 furious rounds. Jose then quickly decreed that Lewis had to face Tony Tucker, an otherwise colourless claimant who hadn't done anything since losing to Tyson back in 1987. Tucker was firmly shackled to King.
Lewis was a brutal right-hand puncher, but the 6'5" ex-Olympian could be very lackadaisical and often just pawed with his jab.. In 1994, in a sensational upset, a one-time Chicago burglar called Oliver McCall blasted Lewis to defeat in round two. A Sulaiman appointed Mexican referee quickly jumped in with Lewis wobbling against the ropes. After 4 and a half years, "The (WBC) heavyweight championship was back where it belonged," exulted King..

[Toney616]

He may have been paying WBC sanctioning fees but he wasn't fighting their contenders..

To rise up the WBC ranks you have to fight other WBC ranked contenders

As "The Humble Servant of Boxing".. That's what he has the cheek to call himself lol.

Don King is a character, thats for sure

If that were the case, then surely he would have been sued for breach of contract?

"While he was incarcerated, the WBC ordered a title eliminator between No. 1 ranked Razor Ruddock and No. 2 ranked Rid**** Bowe, which was accepted by both in writing. After making such commitment, Bowe decided to pull out of the agreement and instead fight Pierre Coetzer of South Africa.

Rid**** Bowe, just elevated to the No. 2 heavyweight contender's ranking by the World Boxing Council, is not signed to fight Donovan "Razor" Ruddock."There is absolutely no fight," Rock Newman, Bowe's manager, said yesterday. "It is a 100 percent figment of Murad Muhammad's warped imagination."Murad Muhammad, Ruddock's promoter, said Wednesday that an agreement had been reached on the fight, but not the site.

Sulaiman said that both Holyfield and Bowe had agreed in writing to defend the crown against the Lewis-Ruddock winner, but that Bowe was having second thoughts. Americans Holyfield and Bowe fight for the world title at the Mirage in Las Vegas, Nev., on Nov. 13.

Witherspoon was made to sign 3 contracts, with one of them being left blank.. Yes, he really was that ******.

See the Don King story, its on youtube as well

True, King fighters were managed by Carl King who acted as a smokescreen for Don King.. There's a difference between wanting and having nothing to do with King.. Lewis was always loyal to the WBC.

Which is not the same as being loyal to King

Bowe not facing Ruddock, I do believe was a duck, but he went looking for a WBA eliminator with Pierre Coetzer instead, once again, avoiding the WBC (as well as all the best contenders). Razor was seriously avoided at the time, and Lewis deserves a lot of credit for stepping up to the plate.

Dude, how on earth do you pay the WBC sanctioning fees, fight other fighters ranked by the WBC, fight for the WBC belt and then say you want nothing to do with the WBC?

It doesn't, but Newman knew it wouldn't be long before they'd have to face one of King's fighters.

It doesnt matter if you fight a King fighter, as long as you are already the champ. Holyfield and Lewis fought a number of Don King fighters for example and never signed with King

King's influences over the other sanctioning bodies, don't have a lifetime's history of double dealings and affinities with the President.. That's why King's fighters don't appear as high on their lists.
Thanks, I will get round to checking out 'The Dark Side of Boxing'[/COLOR]

King paid off the IBF, along with Arum and Kushner. Ruiz was always getting undesreved title shots by the WBA for example

And Newman made sure of it.

How could King get any cut in a fight where he wasnt the promoter of either fighter?

[mickey malone]

To rise up the WBC ranks you have to fight other WBC ranked contenders

All depends who you are.. Tyson didn't when he came out of prison, but Lewis did after he lost to McCall.. King decides..

Don King is a character, thats for sure

I was referring to Sulaiman who calls himself 'The Humble Servant of Boxing' but yes, they are almost identical..

"While he was incarcerated, the WBC ordered a title eliminator between No. 1 ranked Razor Ruddock and No. 2 ranked Rid**** Bowe, which was accepted by both in writing. After making such commitment, Bowe decided to pull out of the agreement and instead fight Pierre Coetzer of South Africa.

Yes he did..

Which is not the same as being loyal to King

So why didn't he fight Bowe for the WBO title?

Dude, how on earth do you pay the WBC sanctioning fees, fight other fighters ranked by the WBC, fight for the WBC belt and then say you want nothing to do with the WBC?

Because the WBC's sanctioning fee's are far more expensive than any of the other sanctioning bodies.. This is to allow for King's cut.
Besides, sanctioning fees are only paid for title fights.

Here are some taped exerpts from an interview conducted under oath by the United States Senate Committee on Govermental Affairs, with Evander Holyfield..
The interview took place on 22 July 1992:-

"Could you please explain for us, what sanctioning fee's are, because the sanctioning fees for the WBC have been mentioned several times in your testimony?"

EH - "Well, sanction fees are, I guess, based on the percentage of a fight, but they usually have a cap of $150,000. My last defense, the WBA charged $150,000, and the IBF charged $150,000, but the WBC charged $290,000."

"Would you be referring to your recent title fight with Larry Holmes?"

EH - "Yes"

"In Las Vegas, Nevada?"

EH - "Yes"

"Why did the WBC charge $290,000, when the WBA & IBF only charge $150,000?"

EH - "I figured they'd changed their rules regardless. They don't live by the rules, and they do what is right for themselves."

"What would happen to a boxer if he didn't pay the sanctioning fee that was charged?

EH - "They would be forced to give up their title."

Here's an affadavit from Joseph Maffia, signed under oath in May 1992.

I am a certified public accountant, and was controller of Don King Productions (DKP) from July 14 1986 tt September 28 1991.

Whenever a fighter engages in a bout for the WBC, WBA or the IBF championships, he is required to pay a sanctioning fee. The fee is determined by a fee schedule and takes into account of such variables as the size of a fighters purse, and the weight clas in which the bout is contested. On occasions, a manager will negotiate a sanctioning fee which is less than the scheduled amount.
However, with each championship fight that Tyson fought under Don King, Mr King directed that Tyson should pay sanctioning fees in excess of the scheduled amount. For example, when Tyson fought Frank Bruno he was required to pay a total of $285,000.. When he fought Carl Williams he paid $236,000, against Buster Douglas it was $319,000, but for each of these fights, Don King took $350,000 from Mike Tyson.. This resulted in over payments totalling $209,000 by Mr Tyson.. Also, after the 1st Tyson Riddock fight, Don King directed that Mike Tyson pay a sanctioning fee of $100,000 to the WBC, even though the bout wasn't a world championship fight..

If these wern't payoffs, what were they?.. Yet the WBC is chartered as a non-profit corperation..

It doesnt matter if you fight a King fighter, as long as you are already the champ. Holyfield and Lewis fought a number of Don King fighters for example and never signed with King

How could King get any cut in a fight where he wasnt the promoter of either fighter?

Refer to the above

[Toney616]

All depends who you are.. Tyson didn't when he came out of prison, but Lewis did after he lost to McCall.. King decides..

I think you are misunderstanding the facts here. If you are a King fighter then you will most probably get a title shot sooner than if you were not a King fighter, due to back handers paid to the WBC. In other words if you are not a King fighter you work your way up and if you are then you get to use the back door i.e King decides for his fighters

So why didn't he fight Bowe for the WBO title?

Although rivals, the WBC's relationship with other sanctioning bodies has improved over time and there have even been talks of unification with the WBA. Unification bouts between WBC and other organizations' champions are becoming more common in recent years. Throughout its history, the WBC has allowed some its organization's champions to fight unification fights with champions of other organizations, although there were times it stepped in to prevent such fights. For many years, it also prevented its champions from holding the WBO belt. When a WBO-recognized champion wished to fight for a WBC championship, he had to abandon his WBO title first, without any special considerations.

During the 1990s, the WBC did not allow its champions to engage in unification bouts with WBO champions.

The WBO title back then was seen as worthless belt, kind of like how the IBObelt is seen today. Even Bowe would say that the belt was stiffling his career. If Lewis had fought him and won the belt then he would have been dropped from the rankings of the WBC, IBF and WBA

Because the WBC's sanctioning fee's are far more expensive than any of the other sanctioning bodies.. This is to allow for King's cut.
Besides, sanctioning fees are only paid for title fights.

How do you know its for King and not for the greedy execs at the WBC?
You also pay to be ranked with the sanctioning bodies as well

Here are some taped exerpts from an interview conducted under oath by the United States Senate Committee on Govermental Affairs, with Evander Holyfield..
The interview took place on 22 July 1992:-

"Could you please explain for us, what sanctioning fee's are, because the sanctioning fees for the WBC have been mentioned several times in your testimony?"

EH - "Well, sanction fees are, I guess, based on the percentage of a fight, but they usually have a cap of $150,000. My last defense, the WBA charged $150,000, and the IBF charged $150,000, but the WBC charged $290,000."

"Would you be referring to your recent title fight with Larry Holmes?"

EH - "Yes"

"In Las Vegas, Nevada?"

EH - "Yes"

"Why did the WBC charge $290,000, when the WBA & IBF only charge $150,000?"

EH - "I figured they'd changed their rules regardless. They don't live by the rules, and they do what is right for themselves."

"What would happen to a boxer if he didn't pay the sanctioning fee that was charged?

EH - "They would be forced to give up their title."

This just means that they are greedier than the other sanctioning bodies, Why are they giving money to King? Its the other way around, he bribes them so they look after his fighters

Here's an affadavit from Joseph Maffia, signed under oath in May 1992.

I am a certified public accountant, and was controller of Don King Productions (DKP) from July 14 1986 tt September 28 1991.

Whenever a fighter engages in a bout for the WBC, WBA or the IBF championships, he is required to pay a sanctioning fee. The fee is determined by a fee schedule and takes into account of such variables as the size of a fighters purse, and the weight clas in which the bout is contested. On occasions, a manager will negotiate a sanctioning fee which is less than the scheduled amount.
However, with each championship fight that Tyson fought under Don King, Mr King directed that Tyson should pay sanctioning fees in excess of the scheduled amount. For example, when Tyson fought Frank Bruno he was required to pay a total of $285,000.. When he fought Carl Williams he paid $236,000, against Buster Douglas it was $319,000, but for each of these fights, Don King took $350,000 from Mike Tyson.. This resulted in over payments totalling $209,000 by Mr Tyson.. Also, after the 1st Tyson Riddock fight, Don King directed that Mike Tyson pay a sanctioning fee of $100,000 to the WBC, even though the bout wasn't a world championship fight..

If these wern't payoffs, what were they?.. Yet the WBC is chartered as a non-profit corperation..

Again I think you are misunderstanding the facts, Tyson was a King fighter who never got himself a decent manager, lawyer or accountant. King was ripping him off left right and centre, using the WBC as one tool for doing so

Refer to the above

see my points above as well

[stefjonno1]

It's laughable for anyone to belive that Bowe never ducked Lewis! LMFAO. Lennox was ****in stalking him. He wanted no part of Lewis at all.

[Toney616]

It's laughable for anyone to belive that Bowe never ducked Lewis! LMFAO. Lennox was ****in stalking him. He wanted no part of Lewis at all.

Bowe wanted nothing to do with him for the same reason he wanted nothing to do wth Ruddock, they were both high risk opponents