ATG's who would benefit from mass gain and those who would not

[BKM-]

So we went over this for weeks in the thread after the Fury-Usyk 2 fight and I feel it should have it's own thread, seperate from what we actually do with fantasy matchups where we take fighters at their actual size and don't fantasize about blowing them up to make it more competitive.

Which bring me to my main point: Most small HW's of the past probably wouldn't benefit from a sudden mass gain, say through modern methods. Some would, many wouldn't, others would receive pro's and cons.

George Foreman I believe would benefit the most. His style relied on strength, power and grappling, leading his assaults behind a very heavy jab. I always find it extraordinary that he was only 225 in his prime as he looks bigger to me IMO, as it's not even that his upperbody is out of proportion. His legs weren't skinny either. His frame would easily carry more mass and make him more effective against modern giants.

Worst example I believe is Joe Louis. I don't think more mass would benefit him at all like some think. The lighter he was the better he looked, his feet were already slow in comparison to others, if he carried any more mass he would be even slower and lose the fluidity of his combinations.

So basicely who do you think benefits and who doesn't?
benefit: Liston, Foreman, Frazier,
wouldn't benefit: Louis, Holmes, Ali

[DeeMoney]

Are we under the assumption that they are just adding weight for the sake of adding weight? Are we also assuming that adding muscle slows them down (which isn't always true) and its just bulk for the sake of bulk? If so, then no one benefits.

If we assume adding muscle can add strength, and they can maintain speed, but lose out on stamina, my first thought would've been Louis. Adding an extra 15 lbs of muscle, if done correctly would not slow down those combos necessarily. A 210-215 lb prime Louis would be a scary punching machine. Of course, he didn't really need it, because he wasn't facing anyone who pressed him in such a way.

I agree with prime Liston, an extra 5-10 lbs of muscle couldve helped him. But once again, it was unneeded, he was battering everyone as was until Ali danced around him.

[Bronson66]

Are we under the assumption that they are just adding weight for the sake of adding weight? Are we also assuming that adding muscle slows them down (which isn't always true) and its just bulk for the sake of bulk? If so, then no one benefits.

If we assume adding muscle can add strength, and they can maintain speed, but lose out on stamina, my first thought would've been Louis. Adding an extra 15 lbs of muscle, if done correctly would not slow down those combos necessarily. A 210-215 lb prime Louis would be a scary punching machine. Of course, he didn't really need it, because he wasn't facing anyone who pressed him in such a way.

I agree with prime Liston, an extra 5-10 lbs of muscle couldve helped him. But once again, it was unneeded, he was battering everyone as was until Ali danced around him.

Weight gain would have been detrimental to Marciano,imo.

[BKM-]

Are we under the assumption that they are just adding weight for the sake of adding weight? Are we also assuming that adding muscle slows them down (which isn't always true) and its just bulk for the sake of bulk? If so, then no one benefits.

If we assume adding muscle can add strength, and they can maintain speed, but lose out on stamina, my first thought would've been Louis. Adding an extra 15 lbs of muscle, if done correctly would not slow down those combos necessarily. A 210-215 lb prime Louis would be a scary punching machine. Of course, he didn't really need it, because he wasn't facing anyone who pressed him in such a way.

I agree with prime Liston, an extra 5-10 lbs of muscle couldve helped him. But once again, it was unneeded, he was battering everyone as was until Ali danced around him.

For the sake of facing the big guys. Lewis, the Klitschko's, Bowe, Fury, AJ etc. Or simply going along with modern times, some argue that past HW's would 'automatically' be bigger with today's diet, weight training and Hulk injections.

Louis I totally disagree with. He already had trouble catching some opponents with the footspeed he had, extra mass would slow him down and ruin what made him effective imo. Maybe it would help his below average chin though.

[DeeMoney]

For the sake of facing the big guys. Lewis, the Klitschko's, Bowe, Fury, AJ etc. Or simply going along with modern times, some argue that past HW's would 'automatically' be bigger with today's diet, weight training and Hulk injections.

Louis I totally disagree with. He already had trouble catching some opponents with the footspeed he had, extra mass would slow him down and ruin what made him effective imo. Maybe it would help his below average chin though.

Its funny, my first thought on Louis was 'maybe it could help him be less chinny', although I've come around to the idea that Louis wasn't really as chinny as we think, rather he was just so concerned with getting himself in position to land punches he sacrificed defense, and in return got caught a lot.

That being written, extra muscle, if added correctly, does not need to make one slower. Look at world class sprinters and their muscles; you do get guys like Lyles who is very light weight, but he is also short. Look at a sprinter who is roughly Joe Louis' height like Fred Kerley, he weighs between 205-210. That is a sprinter, whose whole athletic premise is generated on the premise of generating maximum speed, and he is not trying to lose muscle mass for the sake of speed. Now, if you want to write about endurance, then yes less weight is advantageous, but speed itself doesn't need to be sacrificed (TO AN EXTENT) by adding muscle.

As an aside, you mentioned the "big guys" which I think is the basis for all the hullabaloo going on around here in regards to weight and size. What people seem to ignore, either willfully or due to plain ignorance, is these guys were naturally bigger. The average height for those fighters is above 6'6", and they are each built broader than fighters like Dempsey, Louis, and Ali. Do we really think Lennox Lewis would be better off coming in at Joe Louis' weight? No way, because he is naturally bigger. But as long as people just make disingenuous arguments about weight and size, ignoring things like this to just defend their point, then we just go around in circles (not writing thats you, but just in general).

So while I think Louis could be great with an extra 10 lbs there is no way I would want him fighting at Lennox Lewis weight. The same way I wouldn't want Lennox fighting at Joe Louis weight. All the modern big guys you listed were naturally bigger than most any heavy weight champ who came before- and as such carry extra weight.

[DeeMoney]

Weight gain would have been detrimental to Marciano,imo.

Absolutely, with his height, reach and build he was probably the most he should be. But as I ranted on above, he was significantly smaller than most modern heavyweight champs.

[BKM-]

Its funny, my first thought on Louis was 'maybe it could help him be less chinny', although I've come around to the idea that Louis wasn't really as chinny as we think, rather he was just so concerned with getting himself in position to land punches he sacrificed defense, and in return got caught a lot.

That being written, extra muscle, if added correctly, does not need to make one slower. Look at world class sprinters and their muscles; you do get guys like Lyles who is very light weight, but he is also short. Look at a sprinter who is roughly Joe Louis' height like Fred Kerley, he weighs between 205-210. That is a sprinter, whose whole athletic premise is generated on the premise of generating maximum speed, and he is not trying to lose muscle mass for the sake of speed. Now, if you want to write about endurance, then yes less weight is advantageous, but speed itself doesn't need to be sacrificed (TO AN EXTENT) by adding muscle.

As an aside, you mentioned the "big guys" which I think is the basis for all the hullabaloo going on around here in regards to weight and size. What people seem to ignore, either willfully or due to plain ignorance, is these guys were naturally bigger. The average height for those fighters is above 6'6", and they are each built broader than fighters like Dempsey, Louis, and Ali. Do we really think Lennox Lewis would be better off coming in at Joe Louis' weight? No way, because he is naturally bigger. But as long as people just make disingenuous arguments about weight and size, ignoring things like this to just defend their point, then we just go around in circles (not writing thats you, but just in general).

So while I think Louis could be great with an extra 10 lbs there is no way I would want him fighting at Lennox Lewis weight. The same way I wouldn't want Lennox fighting at Joe Louis weight. All the modern big guys you listed were naturally bigger than most any heavy weight champ who came before- and as such carry extra weight.

I just know from my own experience after I gained a good amount of mass in my late 20s(And no I didn't get fat lol) my movements in every way slowed down whether it was striking training, playing basketball or just work related movements. I used to be able to race up ladders and scaffolds but it's a different story now, and this already started in my early 30s(I'm 34 now) so it's not really age, you just carry mass differently.

Anyway, Louis was obviously lightyears ahead in the genetics department but again, he had cement feet even when he was at his lightest weight. Great footwork, but not fast with his base. How is he going to catch such tall powerful opponents with very long reach? Joe wasn't very tall or big. He would not be able to compensate. He can't close the distance with fast forward explosions and on the inside he will be outmuscled.

These other light guys who gained all that muscle were always great movers and boy did they still move around well at their biggest weight. Usyk, Evander, David Haye, Byrd etc.

[DeeMoney]

I just know from my own experience after I gained a good amount of mass in my late 20s(And no I didn't get fat lol) my movements in every way slowed down whether it was striking training, playing basketball or just work related movements. I used to be able to race up ladders and scaffolds but it's a different story now, and this already started in my early 30s(I'm 34 now) so it's not really age, you just carry mass differently.

Anyway, Louis was obviously lightyears ahead in the genetics department but again, he had cement feet even when he was at his lightest weight. Great footwork, but not fast with his base. How is he going to catch such tall powerful opponents with very long reach? Joe wasn't very tall or big. He would not be able to compensate. He can't close the distance with fast forward explosions and on the inside he will be outmuscled.

These other light guys who gained all that muscle were always great movers and boy did they still move around well at their biggest weight. Usyk, Evander, David Haye, Byrd etc.

But thats what I was writing in my initial post. He didn't need to put on any extra muscle to beat the opponents he faced. Conn is always cited as the example of a quick guy outboxing Louis, but Louis had more reach and range than Conn. There isn't really a tall opponent who was quick who he had to face (there was no Ali who had both speed and size advantage over Louis). Sure he beat big some big guys: Simon, Baer, Carnera were all big heavyweights but none of them were fast nor were any of them greatly skilled at using their range.

I still say a 210-215 Louis wouldve been a scary fighter, but he was fine coming in at 200-205 in his prime to beat other fighters mostly of similar size.

[Anomalocaris]

With modern nutrition Sonny would be perfect at 225-30.

Prime George was always kept far too light by his trainers anyway.

He should have fought at 235-40.

As for Rocky unless he ended up looking like the Michelin man there is no way he could carry more than 205.

There are weight classes for a reason.

[Bronson66]

But thats what I was writing in my initial post. He didn't need to put on any extra muscle to beat the opponents he faced. Conn is always cited as the example of a quick guy outboxing Louis, but Louis had more reach and range than Conn. There isn't really a tall opponent who was quick who he had to face (there was no Ali who had both speed and size advantage over Louis). Sure he beat big some big guys: Simon, Baer, Carnera were all big heavyweights but none of them were fast nor were any of them greatly skilled at using their range.

I still say a 210-215 Louis wouldve been a scary fighter, but he was fine coming in at 200-205 in his prime to beat other fighters mostly of similar size.

Conn,at 6 '1 1/2",was the same height as Louis.