Tunney & Louis

[Dr Z]

But we have hashed this out already.

You can't really find black opponents who can claim they were grossly overlooked, or ducked by Louis.

Louis had five White HW Champions to KO, he did (5-1) in six fights. My God, what's a 'color boy to do.'

The money backers where not big on black-black fights, the color line still dominated the South and West. Even with Louis's rise in 1933, was still hard in the 1930s.

Before the Louis-Baer fight, the announcer lectured the audience on racism, for a solid five minutes. Lots of 'may the best man win' and 'clean sport' pleases! were shoveled at the audience.

Unnecessarily I might add. You can hear on the radio broadcast that the audience was all in. But the week's leadup to the fight, in the newspapers, had not been.

If it was racism it was systemic; it showed at the gate more than in the public eye.

It was Louis following the money.

Look at the gates! This is false statement. Louis made one of his highest purse vs. Walcott. Still think people would not pay to see black on black heavyweight fights.. People will pay to see a good fight, not a mis match like Joe Louis is John Henry Lewis.


Who Louis did not face was significant and these men were African American.


I’m thinking of Lem Franklin, Harry Bobo, Turkey Thompson, Lee Q. Murray, Elmer Ray, Curtis Sheppard, and Jack Trammell, who spent much of their careers in a pugilistic version of Six Degrees of Separation.

Franklin, who fought from 1937 to 1944 (31-13-1, 28 KOs), beat Sheppard, as well as Lee Savold, Abe Simon, Willie Reddish, and Jimmy Bivins.

Bobo, a pro from ‘39 to ‘44 (36-9, 24 KOs), took out Franklin, not to mention Wild Bill Boyd and Lee Savold.

Thompson fought from ‘38 to ‘52 (54-15-2, 39 KOs), beating Ray and Murray, as well as Johnny “Bandit” Romero (knocking him out on three separate occasions), Teddy Yarosz, Pat Valentino, Gus Dorazio, Arturo Godoy, and Willie Bean.

As for Murray, who also fought from ‘38 to ‘52 (59-17-3, 42 KOs), he took out Sheppard, Bobo, and Thompson, in addition to Ted Lowry and Jimmy Bivins.

Ray, a pro from ‘35 to ‘49 (85-17-5, 63 KOs), didn’t beat any of his six compadres, he did emerge victorious over Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles. And let’s not forget his nine bouts with the much-avoided and never-stopped, over 17 years and 101 fights, Obie Walker, winning four, losing three, and drawing two. Walker was the second-to-last World Colored Heavyweight Champion, a title rendered defunct by Joe Louis’ reign.

Sheppard fought from ‘38 to ‘49 (52-33, 33 KOs), beating Murray, as well as Unknown Winston, Joey Maxim, Gus Dorazio, and Johnny Shkor.

Trammell fought from ‘31 to ‘46 (50-12-2, 30 KOs). He, too, never got to face Louis.


These six men deseved a title shot...but Louis choose bum of the month types.

As such he drew the color line.

[Dr Z]

[QUOTE=Bronson66;n32405636]

I think the problem with the underlined B is,how many punchers did Tunney face,especially heavyweight punchers?

He toyed with Dempsey twice who hit very hard, didn't he?

[Willie Pep 229]

Look at the gates! This is false statement. Louis made one of his highest purse vs. Walcott. Still think people would not pay to see black on black heavyweight fights.. People will pay to see a good fight, not a mis match like Joe Louis is John Henry Lewis.


Who Louis did not face was significant and these men were African American.


I’m thinking of Lem Franklin, Harry Bobo, Turkey Thompson, Lee Q. Murray, Elmer Ray, Curtis Sheppard, and Jack Trammell, who spent much of their careers in a pugilistic version of Six Degrees of Separation.

Franklin, who fought from 1937 to 1944 (31-13-1, 28 KOs), beat Sheppard, as well as Lee Savold, Abe Simon, Willie Reddish, and Jimmy Bivins.

Bobo, a pro from ‘39 to ‘44 (36-9, 24 KOs), took out Franklin, not to mention Wild Bill Boyd and Lee Savold.

Thompson fought from ‘38 to ‘52 (54-15-2, 39 KOs), beating Ray and Murray, as well as Johnny “Bandit” Romero (knocking him out on three separate occasions), Teddy Yarosz, Pat Valentino, Gus Dorazio, Arturo Godoy, and Willie Bean.

As for Murray, who also fought from ‘38 to ‘52 (59-17-3, 42 KOs), he took out Sheppard, Bobo, and Thompson, in addition to Ted Lowry and Jimmy Bivins.

Ray, a pro from ‘35 to ‘49 (85-17-5, 63 KOs), didn’t beat any of his six compadres, he did emerge victorious over Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles. And let’s not forget his nine bouts with the much-avoided and never-stopped, over 17 years and 101 fights, Obie Walker, winning four, losing three, and drawing two. Walker was the second-to-last World Colored Heavyweight Champion, a title rendered defunct by Joe Louis’ reign.

Sheppard fought from ‘38 to ‘49 (52-33, 33 KOs), beating Murray, as well as Unknown Winston, Joey Maxim, Gus Dorazio, and Johnny Shkor.

Trammell fought from ‘31 to ‘46 (50-12-2, 30 KOs). He, too, never got to face Louis.


These six men deseved a title shot...but Louis choose bum of the month types.

As such he drew the color line.

The Walcott fight was after the war.

Walcott only got the first fight after it tumbled from and exhibition into a title fight. Louis then made only $250'K for the Walcott rematch.

Louis made $600K for Conn II.

[Bronson66]

The Walcott fight was after the war.

Walcott only got the first fight after it tumbled from and exhibition into a title fight. Louis then made only $250'K for the Walcott rematch.

Louis made $600K for Conn II.

Gross Gates.
Louis v Galento1939 $283,392,68

Louis v Mauriello 1940 $335,063

Louis v Pastor 1939 $347,870

Louis v Farr 1937 $265,753.
Louis v Conn1. 1941 $1,925,504
Louis v Conn2.1945 $5,77,700
Louis v Schmeling 2. 1938 $1015,096
Louis v Mann1937 $111,698,49
All the above made more than the Lewis and Walcott fights,and all happened earlier than the Walcott fight.
Louis v Lewis 1939 $102,015,45.
Walcott v Louis 1947 $ 216,477.
Facts are facts .
Louis did not pick his challengers Mike Jacobs did,Jacobs was convinced 2 black heavyweights fighting for the title would not be a big draw,and,in this conviction he held the same opinion as the big promoters that preceded him .
Jack Curley,Jim Coffroth,and Tex Rickard.
We have a well documented Louis hater on this forum who surfaces anytime Louis' name is in the thread,ditto if its Dempsey or Ali's name.

[Bronson66]

Look at the gates! This is false statement. Louis made one of his highest purse vs. Walcott. Still think people would not pay to see black on black heavyweight fights.. People will pay to see a good fight, not a mis match like Joe Louis is John Henry Lewis.


Who Louis did not face was significant and these men were African American.


I’m thinking of Lem Franklin, Harry Bobo, Turkey Thompson, Lee Q. Murray, Elmer Ray, Curtis Sheppard, and Jack Trammell, who spent much of their careers in a pugilistic version of Six Degrees of Separation.

Franklin, who fought from 1937 to 1944 (31-13-1, 28 KOs), beat Sheppard, as well as Lee Savold, Abe Simon, Willie Reddish, and Jimmy Bivins.

Bobo, a pro from ‘39 to ‘44 (36-9, 24 KOs), took out Franklin, not to mention Wild Bill Boyd and Lee Savold.

Thompson fought from ‘38 to ‘52 (54-15-2, 39 KOs), beating Ray and Murray, as well as Johnny “Bandit” Romero (knocking him out on three separate occasions), Teddy Yarosz, Pat Valentino, Gus Dorazio, Arturo Godoy, and Willie Bean.

As for Murray, who also fought from ‘38 to ‘52 (59-17-3, 42 KOs), he took out Sheppard, Bobo, and Thompson, in addition to Ted Lowry and Jimmy Bivins.

Ray, a pro from ‘35 to ‘49 (85-17-5, 63 KOs), didn’t beat any of his six compadres, he did emerge victorious over Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles. And let’s not forget his nine bouts with the much-avoided and never-stopped, over 17 years and 101 fights, Obie Walker, winning four, losing three, and drawing two. Walker was the second-to-last World Colored Heavyweight Champion, a title rendered defunct by Joe Louis’ reign.

Sheppard fought from ‘38 to ‘49 (52-33, 33 KOs), beating Murray, as well as Unknown Winston, Joey Maxim, Gus Dorazio, and Johnny Shkor.

Trammell fought from ‘31 to ‘46 (50-12-2, 30 KOs). He, too, never got to face Louis.


These six men deseved a title shot...but Louis choose bum of the month types.

As such he drew the color line.

Franklin
1940 no 10
That year Louis fought Godoy ranked no 2 twice,should he have bypassed the Chilean and fought Franklin , the lowest ranked contender Franklin?
Franklin 1941 no2 Franklin got his rating by beating Simon in October of that year,he beat no other top ten ranked fights that year.
That year Louis fought Burman no3.Simon no 4,Conn no 1,Baer no 7,and Nova no8

Franklin was kod by Pastor in February1942 So there was a window of 4 months when a match with Louis would have been viable.
Pastor had already been beaten twice by Louis by decision.8-1 .8-2 and by 11 rds ko flooring Pastor 5 times . During that 4 months window October 41 /Feb42 Louis beat Nova no8 and Baer no7.
Franklin lost to
Musto
Simms
Savold x2
Pastor
Louis ko'd all of them!

Harry Bobo Was only ranked no5 at the end of 1942 Louis was in the Army and defended his title twice for training expenses,against Baer no6 and Simon no 5 after which his title was frozen. Bobo lost to Dorazio whom louis kod ' . Case closed!

Thompson
1941 no6 , Louis defended against Burman no3,Simon no4,Baer no 7 Conn no1,Nova no 8,and Musto.
IN 1941 Thompson lost Pastor x2 Drew with Musto and Simon all beaten by Louis.
1942 no3*
1943 no 8*
1947 no 8
* Louis' title frozen.

1947 Thompson no 8

After 5 years of being out of the rankings, Louis defeated Walcott no 3 that year. 1948 Thompson lost to Bivins and Valentino.Louis ko'd no1 challenger Walcott.

Murray.
Ranked
1943 no3 . Louis' title frozen.
1944 no5. Louis had one outing a quasi fight/exhibition against Johnny Davis
46 no5 . Louis defended against Conn no1.Mauirello no 2.
Should Louis have bypassed Conn and Mauriello the top 2 contenders to fight Murray?
7 Murray lost to Bivins 3 times.

Ray.
1944 no8.Louis was not discharged from the Army until October the 1st of that year

1945 no4.Louis did not fight until again June 1946 when he took on no1 Conn.


Sheppard.
Ranked in 1943 & 1944,Louis' title was frozen in 43 and he was still in the Army until October 1944..
Beaten 3 times by Louis victim Bivins, and ko by another Louis victim Walcott [x2]
No case to answer!

Trammell.
Only ranked in1936 ,before Louis won the title ,never beat a ranked fighter,after 1936 he was never again a factor as a contender.
Louis did not win the title until June 1937.
In1937 Trammell lost to Fox x2 &; Perroni., both unranked. Louis had beaten Perroni 2 years earlier.
In 1938 Trammell lost to unranked Fox again.
In1940 Trammell lost to Toles and Walker.
You have been schooled on this subject twice here, to my knowledge ,and 3 times back on ESB where you were systematically taken apart in a savage beatdown that would have been painful to watch if it had happened to anyone else! lol.

You are a standing joke!

[Dr Z]

Gross Gates.
Louis v Galento1939 $283,392,68

Louis v Mauriello 1940 $335,063

Louis v Pastor 1939 $347,870

Louis v Farr 1937 $265,753.
Louis v Conn1. 1941 $1,925,504
Louis v Conn2.1945 $5,77,700
Louis v Schmeling 2. 1938 $1015,096
Louis v Mann1937 $111,698,49
All the above made more than the Lewis and Walcott fights,and all happened earlier than the Walcott fight.
Louis v Lewis 1939 $102,015,45.
Walcott v Louis 1947 $ 216,477.
Facts are facts .
Louis did not pick his challengers Mike Jacobs did,Jacobs was convinced 2 black heavyweights fighting for the title would not be a big draw,and,in this conviction he held the same opinion as the big promoters that preceded him .
Jack Curley,Jim Coffroth,and Tex Rickard.
We have a well documented Louis hater on this forum who surfaces anytime Louis' name is in the thread,ditto if its Dempsey or Ali's name.

Louis vs. Walcott II

A crowd of 42,667 at Yankee Stadium produced a gate of $841,739.00

The facts. Keep saying Louis could not draw well vs a black man.

You mix falsely report ages, and report weights that suit your agenda.

[Bronson66]

Louis vs. Walcott II

A crowd of 42,667 at Yankee Stadium produced a gate of $841,739.00

The facts. Keep saying Louis could not draw well vs a black man.

You mix falsely report ages, and report weights that suit your agenda.

Less than the gates for Conn 1, 7 years earlier & 2 ,Schmeling 2, 9 years earlier.

Walcott drew a good gate because their 1 st fight was close.
The 4 top promoters in the US said two blacks fighting for the heavyweight title would not draw.If they thought they would have ,would they not have promoted fights between them, their business was making as much profit as they could?
FYI. Lewis got his title shot against Louis because Joe put pressure on Jacobs who did not want the fight.

The gross gates for Godoy 2 a Chilean.Farr a Welshman and unknown in the US, and Pastor2 whom Louis had already beaten were also bigger than the Louis v Lewis fight between two reigning champions.
You're really dumb aren't you.