McCarty or Ibeabuchi??

[Bronson66]

"McCarty became the white champ on New Year’s Day in 1913. Soon after, in an interview with the Cincinnati Enquirer, he has quoted as saying he had “no use for a Negro” and would not fight Jack Johnson “under any circumstances.”

Sounds the other way around to me.



That being said, Luther was more unproven and not as polished or experienced as Ike at their respective times of demise.

Your own article has McCarty wanting no part of Johnson, even after Johnson called for the fight.

Johnson sent a telegram to Tommy Burns , who was promoting in Calgary Canada ,offering to defend his title there against McCarty,Burns who was promoting Arthur Pelkey at the time, and had plans to match him with McCarty, for the White Heavyweight crown,which he later did, wanted nothing to do with the prospect of Johnson turning up and stealing his thunder. Knocking off one of his meal tickets and making a proposed match between the 2 white boxers redundant.
He sent a reply saying nothing doing,and Johnson's offer of a defence in Canada never came to fruition.
Johnson was 35 when he made the offer.

"The original opponent of McCarty was to have been Tommy Burns, who had offered Luther $10,000 win ,lose ,or draw to come to Calgary and defend his synthetic title.
Its likely that Burns never had any intention of facing McCarty and was just drumming up publicity, this seems to have been confirmed when he abruptly pulled out of the fight and announced his protege Arthur Pelkey would instead challenge McCarty. Burns not only promoted Pelkey he had an interest in the local Stadium.
At this point the real heavyweight champion Jack Johnson , on his uppers in France, declared he would be willing to come to Calgary and defend his title against McCarty.
Burns ,who had now taken over the promotional reins of the fight, gave an interview in the Calgary Daily Herald . He grandly dismissed Johnson's offer with the statement.

"There is absolutely no reason why I should make this match,Johnson has not conducted himself in a gentlemanly manner at all since gaining the title,and,now that I am a match maker I am only putting on matches which are between men of good character and clean living fellows."
I hope this settles this.

[JAB5239]

When there was a colored title no white guy fought for the colored belt just like no black guy fought for the white title belt

This is different from the lineal tile. While Johnson was champion with the lineal title he ducked Langford, and Jeannette for sure. This is unless you think he fought better guys for his lineal title challengers for 1909-1915 !

Difference being a white man could fight for the lineal title. Until Johnson came along no black man could. Hence the creation of a title of their own.

So how did you come to the opinion Johnson ducked McCarty?

[Bronson66]

No I did not. I did read the quote you posted (so you told me what the man himself said) and in that quote he said he was following the scantioning body's rules.

I am not interested in reading conformation bias you find on the Internet.

Your opinion is the conventional 21st century wisdom: The color line was drawn because white fighters were afraid of black fighters.

That factiod as been beaten to death for 50 years, and I am sure you can find 20 articles that agree with you, none that agree with me. That doesn't sway me, it is just the PC thing to say.

I have already suffered enough of the redundancy it offers. You and I know the players and events well enough to have our own opinions.

But I say again, if that premise was true, would they not have kept the game segregated, but instead they fought Johnson the moment he said yes?

Johnson was in no position to contest any of it and they could have left him to wilt away in South America, and easily moved their 'white champion' into the undisputed slot and JJ would have been ignored.

But no, what did these racist whites actually do? These 'frightened' white men rushed to Cuba just to fight him as soon as he was avaiable.*

* Be honest, between late 1912 until April 1915 in Hanava, Johnson cherry picked easy opponents in France and then sat on the title without fighting for almost two years until he ran out of money. Then he got beat and the white champion disappeared.

I don't think White fighters were afraid to fight black fighters,per se, but I do think the prevailing racism of the times enabled them to avoid the best of the black fighters.
Jeffries for example had no problem fighting blacks until he became champion at which time he stated categorically that he would never defend his title against one," for fear of losing to a man of the colored race."
Johnson signed to defend his title against Joe Jeannette at St Nicks Arena NY Sept 23rd ,The NYAC vetoed the fight and threatened any promoter who put it on with suspension of his licence.Was that a cherrypick?

Johnson signed to defend against both McVey and Langford in1912 in Australia ,would these have been cherry picks?

He signed to fight both for McIntosh on Oct 12th 1912 his purse was to be $55,000 plus $5000 training expenses ,plus 5 round trip tickets. with a forfeit of $10,000. On October the 14th Johnson was arrested for abducting Lucille Cameron, and bailed for $5000. McIntosh announced that the Australian public was disgusted at Johnson's actions and withdrew his offer.
This is all verifiable boxing history.

[Willie Pep 229]

I don't think White fighters were afraid to fight black fighters,per se, but I do think the prevailing racism of the times enabled them to avoid the best of the black fighters.
Jeffries for example had no problem fighting blacks until he became champion at which time he stated categorically that he would never defend his title against one," for fear of losing to a man of the colored race."
Johnson signed to defend his title against Joe Jeannette at St Nicks Arena NY Sept 23rd ,The NYAC vetoed the fight and threatened any promoter who put it on with suspension of his licence.Was that a cherrypick?

I don't believe I ever suggested those statements are not true.

Re Bold: Yes to that statement, as it is the boiler plate. There was a convenience to the color line that was abused by white fighters.

The issue I had with Jab was whether the 'white champion' was a place-holder while JJ was on the run (my view) or if it was created for the purpose of officialy avoiding great black fighters. (Jab's vew).

Certainly some involved were racist, but as I argued earlier, it was immediately abandoned as soon as JJ became available in Havana.

The existance of a White Championship, at that time isn't in my opinion a foundation on which to claim white fighters were avoiding Johnson.

The whites were indeed racist, but wanted a white hope not a 'white champion.' How it played out makes that obvious.

[JAB5239]

I don't believe I ever suggested those statements are not true.

Re Bold: Yes to that statement, as it is the boiler plate. There was a convenience to the color line that was abused by white fighters.

The issue I had with Jab was whether the 'white champion' was a place-holder while JJ was on the run (my view) or if it was created for the purpose of officialy avoiding great black fighters. (Jab's vew).

Certainly some involved were racist, but as I argued earlier, it was immediately abandoned as soon as JJ became available in Havana.

The existance of a White Championship, at that time isn't in my opinion a foundation on which to claim white fighters were avoiding Johnson.

The whites were indeed racist, but wanted a white hope not a 'white champion.' How it played out makes that obvious.

What if Johnson had beaten Willard, would there still be a white Heavyweight championship? I could understand if Johnson was avoiding white fighters but that isn't the case.

Either way, my whole point to this redundant debate is Johnson in no way, shape or form ducking McCarty as was suggested by Z. In other words just another smear campaign which is why I refuse to take his bait in the top 20 all time heavyweights thread until he posts his own top 20 all time heavyweights. There is a lot to question Johnson about just as I have done Dempsey so many times, but his greatness and the obstacles he had to overcome to be champion are not one of them, just as they're not with Dempsey. And while i question both their paths taken i have nothing but respect and reverence for them as fighters.

And Pep, my friend.....no fighter is a coward, nit even the one I despise for my own reasons. I don't believe I ever said that. If I have about any fighter it was in the heat of the moment and not reflective of the respect for any man at any level who gets in there and risks his life.

[Bronson66]

Hello there. Don't I know you? Welcome back. You can come out anytime. By the way I recently learned that Jack Johnson was going to fight Sam Mcvey just before World War one...in Russia.

Posters here seem to be familiar with you?

You learned? As in you have a verifiable source to offer as proof of this?

From1905 to 1914 Russia was not in a good financial position.

Recovering from recession, industry once again experienced robust growth after 1910. But there were underlying weaknesses. Russia’s trade turnover was no greater than and only one-fifth that of . Russian capital markets were also not as well developed as they were elsewhere in Europe. A telling indicator is that in 1912-1914 the value of Russian securities amounted to only 2 percent of national assets, compared to 11 percent in , 18 percent in the , 26 percent in , and 41 percent in the UK.


Boxing, in this respect, struggled to shake its prohibitively violent and non-codified image, even after the introduction to Russia in 1894 (according to Riordan) of the Marquess of Queensberry’s rules (1866) and remained restricted to limited participation and rather more extensive wagering for some time thereafter. Despite a national championship event in 1914, boxing had struggled for two decades to gain notoriety and recognition of its requisite level of technical ability.

Source: )
Boxing was virtually unknown in Russia pre WW1to a sporting event ,involving a sport that was generally not practised in their country
What sort of a fan base would two unknown black Americans draw?
Who in Russia would have the money to pay for a ticket to view this oddity?

This was pre flight travel what would the travel expenses be for the two of them ,with their entourages, managers,trainers,sparring partners to sail from the US to Russia?
The distance by sea is 4 thousand 8 hundred and 76 nautical miles.
In early1914 McVey was in Melbourne Australia, that is nearly 9 thousand miles from St Petersburg, the then capital of Russia.

Do you think that a Heavyweight Title fight was ever a feasible option in early 1914, in a country on the brink of war with Germany?


Who would be prepared to finance a Heavyweight Title Boxing Match in Russia?
Who would be prepared to promote it?
Where would it be held?
Who would watch it?

You have been corrected on 4 points you made.
1.Johnson did not avoid McCarty,he actively sought a title defence against him.
2.Johnson did not avoid Jeannette he signed to defend against him in NY in1912.The NYAC stopped the fight.Twice
3 Johnson did not avoid Langford ,he signed to defend against him in Australia 1912 The promoter cancelled the fight.
4.Johnson did not avoid Mcvey,he signed to defend against him in Australia in1912 ,The promoter cancelled the fight.
Johnson posted cash bonds for all these fights.
That is 4 statements you have made that are untrue.

Looking forward to your evidence that a heavyweight title fight was ever a financially viable option in Russia pre WW1.

[Bronson66]

Interested? Hint read W E B Duois. He was part USA separatist, part communist. He traveled to Russia several times and almost pulled off the match but something called World War I happened.

No, not really.I know who he was

By the way its W E B Du Bois, and he did not visit Russia until1921 ,7 years after you say he was trying to promote a Heavyweight title fight in1914 and 2 when Russia was not communist.Russia ceased hostilities with Germany in March1918,at the treaty of Brest ,they had their revolution in1917.

Johnson lost his title 6 years before Du Bois ever set foot in Russia.

Du Bois returned to the US in1928


Du Bois never had any connection to boxing whatsoever.

Your winning score at bat vis a vis statements is now 0 -5.

[QueensburyRules]

What if Johnson had beaten Willard, would there still be a white Heavyweight championship? I could understand if Johnson was avoiding white fighters but that isn't the case.

Either way, my whole point to this redundant debate is Johnson in no way, shape or form ducking McCarty as was suggested by Z. In other words just another smear campaign which is why I refuse to take his bait in the top 20 all time heavyweights thread until he posts his own top 20 all time heavyweights. There is a lot to question Johnson about just as I have done Dempsey so many times, but his greatness and the obstacles he had to overcome to be champion are not one of them, just as they're not with Dempsey. And while i question both their paths taken i have nothing but respect and reverence for them as fighters.

And Pep, my friend.....no fighter is a coward, nit even the one I despise for my own reasons. I don't believe I ever said that. If I have about any fighter it was in the heat of the moment and not reflective of the respect for any man at any level who gets in there and risks his life.

- - What part of Whites, Blacks, Mexicans, and Asians have always had their own titles separate from the established Big Boxing Titles do you not understand?

Joe Louis beat up the existing White Champ but never claimed the title even as he had significant White Heritage as well as Native American in his family tree.

[Bronson66]

- - What part of Whites, Blacks, Mexicans, and Asians have always had their own titles separate from the established Big Boxing Titles do you not understand?

Joe Louis beat up the existing White Champ but never claimed the title even as he had significant White Heritage as well as Native American in his family tree.

Who was the existing White Champ Louis beat up?

[Willie Pep 229]

Who was the existing White Champ Louis beat up?

Seems there was a very short-lived, mostly ignored, period where someone was pushing Max Baer as the 'White HW Champion.'

I know VERY little about it.

I will keep an eye open.

I wonder if some organization was using Baer without his support or involvement?

If you run across anything shout out.

[EDIT] Remember Dempsey even had his own 'White Hope' tour going, which ironically included a black fighter. So I am not suprised someone else was trying to run a 'white thing' during that period.

P.S. You know, it's boxing and there has always been 'Jake Pauls' trying to weasel their way into the $$s.