The Colour Line In Boxing And It's History

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Willie Pep 229;n31798501]

LOL Learn to quote - I hate having my name associated with that cherry picked history that now looks like I said it.

Look up the 1916 Jean Jeannette- Dempsey incident - Milk Fund Charity Exhibition, Madison Square Garden and see if the cherry picked quote is, to you, a true and just interpretation of what happened that night.

Then rethink your source.

Dempsey had agreed to box a free exhibition with Joe Bonds,Bonds was present but claimed he was injured Jeannette was substituted,[he said later he was under the impression Dempsey was aware of the situation,].
Dempsey did not refuse to box Jeannette he said it was up to Kearns.
Kearns said no way, this has been interpreted as Kearns not wishing to take on Jeannette because he would be establishing a precedent and paving the way for a Wills match.But Dempsey had fought blacks before.
I think the situation put Dempsey in a no win situation.Jeannette was past his best,Dempsey had turned up looking to go though the motions with Bonds for free.Jeannette probably seeking to revive his flagging career, would almost certainly have forced Jack into a serious scrap in which Dempsey would have been forced to go to town on Joe,and all for free.
If Dempsey had beaten Jeannette up I very much doubt he would have gotten any credit for it,and if he had taken it easy on him the next mornings papers would have given Jack negative notices.As it was Dempsey and Kearns left after Dempsey donated $500 to the event-

[travestyny]

Dempsey had agreed to box a free exhibition with Joe Bonds,Bonds was present but claimed he was injured Jeannette was substituted,[he said later he was under the impression Dempsey was aware of the situation,].
Dempsey did not refuse to box Jeannette he said it was up to Kearns.
Kearns said no way, this has been interpreted as Kearns not wishing to take on Jeannette because he would be establishing a precedent and paving the way for a Wills match.But Dempsey had fought blacks before.
I think the situation put Dempsey in a no win situation.Jeannette was past his best,Dempsey had turned up looking to go though the motions with Bonds for free.Jeannette probably seeking to revive his flagging career, would almost certainly have forced Jack into a serious scrap in which Dempsey would have been forced to go to town on Joe,and all for free.
If Dempsey had beaten Jeannette up I very much doubt he would have gotten any credit for it,and if he had taken it easy on him the next mornings papers would have given Jack negative notices.As it was Dempsey and Kearns left after Dempsey donated $500 to the event-

I wouldn't say it specifically could be seen as paving the way for the Wills match because remember, this event happened before Dempsey was champion.


Dempsey does quote himself as saying he would fight any White boxer in the house, but not a colored one. It can be found in the article I mentioned in the previous post.

[Willie Pep 229]

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I would love to hear members here discuss the colour line in boxing and why it came about, what were the reasons for it being invented and why was america so willing to deny black boxers their fair shot at boxing titles. Can others explain? Were white men scared of black men or was it purely racism. I have read that white men back then considered black men as a different human (inferior) but growing up I always thought it was based on fear such as Jack Johnson beating Tommy Burns when Burns ran around the world trying to keep away from Johnson and how the camera men at the fight were told to turn off their cameras so the world wouldn't see Johnson knocking out Burns.
Can others explore the debate about this ancient boxing law that shames us now in our enlightened times. Some have said that johnson could beat 4 white men in one day and that there were other black boxers who were not allowed to fight despite being much better then the champion who was white.
Was the colour line based purely on fear as I believe or was there other reasons. This is one for the boxing knowledgeable and everyone who reads about boxing history.
should we condemn white men who went along with this rule or should we accept that they could only do what they were told in those days. could they have broken this rule to fight johnson and why didn't boxers like sullivan, jefferies and corbet fight black boxers was it the pressure of the times or were they just chicken/
i've even heard that the american civil war had a part to play in the south they saw black fighters as not worthy of success so they wanted to keep them enslaved.

I'm going to try to get this back to your original point.

There is a good Dempsey story that follows the logic of your argument about experience.

Dempsey tried his hand at the big time (New York City) in 1916 and things did not go so well.

It was his third NY fight that he ran into John Lester Johnson (Negro).

Boxrec has it listed as a NWS draw, but that's not how Dempsey remembered it.

Dempsey's side of the story is that he got manhandled. Johnson was throwing stuff at him he had never seen before. He was being throughly out boxed.

Dempsey realized he wasn't ready for what these guys knew (and at that point Johnson had approximately the same number of recorded fights as Dempsey.)

Dempsey left NY and skeedalled back out west for a while, met Doc Kearns, and would not return to make his Tyson-esque run for the title until Janurary 1918.

So at that point, Dempsey (1916) was fighting a black fighter who on paper had the same amount of experience as him but to Dempsey's mind was a lightyear ahead of him in knowledge.

So maybe Johnson is an example of the type of black fighters you reference above, one who picked up those moves in the type of un-scantioned fights you were suggesting black fighters had the opportunity to learn from.

[max baer]

I'm going to try to get this back to your original point.

There is a good Dempsey story that follows the logic of your argument about experience.

Dempsey tried his hand at the big time (New York City) in 1916 and things did not go so well.

It was his third NY fight that he ran into John Lester Johnson (Negro).

Boxrec has it listed as a NWS draw, but that's not how Dempsey remembered it.

Dempsey's side of the story is that he got manhandled. Johnson was throwing stuff at him he had never seen before. He was being throughly out boxed.

Dempsey realized he wasn't ready for what these guys knew (and at that point Johnson had approximately the same number of recorded fights as Dempsey.)

Dempsey left NY and skeedalled back out west for a while, met Doc Kearns, and would not return to make his Tyson-esque run for the title until Janurary 1918.

So at that point, Dempsey (1916) was fighting a black fighter who on paper had the same amount of experience as him but to Dempsey's mind was a lightyear ahead of him in knowledge.

So maybe Johnson is an example of the type of black fighters you reference above, one who picked up those moves in the type of un-scantioned fights you were suggesting black fighters had the opportunity to learn from.

willie you are very educated on boxing history i cannot compete. my knowledge of the history i picked up seeing this as a kid and reading that over the years. i think it was that white men considered black men to be beast like whereas white men saw themselves as refined and educated and classy.
It is like the way ancient greeks felt about prisoners from certain other countrys as beast more then man or how ****s felt about ***s as inferior. It was like they are not going to fight a beast only other refined cultured white men.
these kind of views make me very upset as it is so hurtful for black men to have to put up with that kind of stuff. that is my thinking.

[Willie Pep 229]

willie you are very educated on boxing history i cannot compete. my knowledge of the history i picked up seeing this as a kid and reading that over the years. i think it was that white men considered black men to be beast like whereas white men saw themselves as refined and educated and classy.
It is like the way ancient greeks felt about prisoners from certain other countrys as beast more then man or how ****s felt about ***s as inferior. It was like they are not going to fight a beast only other refined cultured white men.
these kind of views make me very upset as it is so hurtful for black men to have to put up with that kind of stuff. that is my thinking.

That probably describes half of the American populous at the time. Damn **** were just 80 years ago and now we're at it again.

The American Indian was looked upon in the same manner but the go-to word for them was 'savage.'

The color line is a difficult history to wrap one's head around.

Here's another nuance.

Some promoters would stage mixed cards but not mixed bouts.

Fitzsimmons promoted Denpsey's first defense (Billy Miske). Fitz, Kearns, and Dempsey wanted to give the aging Sam Langford a payday, so Langford fought Bill Tate one of Dempsey's sparing partners. Tate was black.

So it was a mixed card but no mixed bouts.

The third fight was Greb-Wiggins. (Wiggins was white.)

So there is another wrinkle to deal with . . . Some promoters and even some commissions would allow mixed cards but not mixed bouts.

Some would touch neither.

[QueensburyRules]

I'm going to try to get this back to your original point.

There is a good Dempsey story that follows the logic of your argument about experience.

Dempsey tried his hand at the big time (New York City) in 1916 and things did not go so well.

It was his third NY fight that he ran into John Lester Johnson (Negro).

Boxrec has it listed as a NWS draw, but that's not how Dempsey remembered it.

Dempsey's side of the story is that he got manhandled. Johnson was throwing stuff at him he had never seen before. He was being throughly out boxed.

Dempsey realized he wasn't ready for what these guys knew (and at that point Johnson had approximately the same number of recorded fights as Dempsey.)

Dempsey left NY and skeedalled back out west for a while, met Doc Kearns, and would not return to make his Tyson-esque run for the title until Janurary 1918.

So at that point, Dempsey (1916) was fighting a black fighter who on paper had the same amount of experience as him but to Dempsey's mind was a lightyear ahead of him in knowledge.

So maybe Johnson is an example of the type of black fighters you reference above, one who picked up those moves in the type of un-scantioned fights you were suggesting black fighters had the opportunity to learn from.

- - Truth is more nuanced as you surely know.

NY Slickster wired Dempsey's then mgr who carried Dempsey news clippings for authenticity that there was an emergency in his family who were in need of him, leaving Dempsey up to his own devices. 21 yr old Dempsey had to sign a mgr contract with the slickster where he was matched with JLJohnson whose last loss had been a 10 rounder against 26 yr old Harry Wills.

Boxrec lists the bout as a draw, a fast paced bout resulting in a Dempsey broken rib. Dempsey received $100, but reportedly received no $ for his first two wins where he'd been sleeping on park benches and standing in soup lines. Insert Langford here that Dempsey rightly declined that led to the self effacing Jack to claim Sam could've beat him. After the mgr took his onerous cut, Jack took the remaining pittance to buy a dinner before riding the rails home while nursing his busted rib. The slickster then caused all manner or legal woes by attaching subsequent purses until Kearns figured out how to sidestep him. I think he was still there for the Tunney series.

The Jeanette stunt was Joe using his considerable gravitas to sub for the milk fund opponent. Kearns went livid and straight at officials before pulling Dempsey who had no say so, and even if he did he was being matched for the media for Willard that a black bout would kill. Jeannette was already inactive, nor did he ever return to the ring for another fight again, a non boxing participant save the Milk Fund squabble.

Dempsey did janitorial services for Young Peter Jackson in Salt Lake City as a teen, and most assuredly must have sparred with fighters there including black fighters, even Young Jackson himself under the guise of Kid Blackie in fight substitutions, but I don't know if that has or could be proven.

[Ivich]

- - Truth is more nuanced as you surely know.

NY Slickster wired Dempsey's then mgr who carried Dempsey news clippings for authenticity that there was an emergency in his family who were in need of him, leaving Dempsey up to his own devices. 21 yr old Dempsey had to sign a mgr contract with the slickster where he was matched with JLJohnson whose last loss had been a 10 rounder against 26 yr old Harry Wills.

Boxrec lists the bout as a draw, a fast paced bout resulting in a Dempsey broken rib. Dempsey received $100, but reportedly received no $ for his first two wins where he'd been sleeping on park benches and standing in soup lines. Insert Langford here that Dempsey rightly declined that led to the self effacing Jack to claim Sam could've beat him. After the mgr took his onerous cut, Jack took the remaining pittance to buy a dinner before riding the rails home while nursing his busted rib. The slickster then caused all manner or legal woes by attaching subsequent purses until Kearns figured out how to sidestep him. I think he was still there for the Tunney series.

The Jeanette stunt was Joe using his considerable gravitas to sub for the milk fund opponent. Kearns went livid and straight at officials before pulling Dempsey who had no say so, and even if he did he was being matched for the media for Willard that a black bout would kill. Jeannette was already inactive, nor did he ever return to the ring for another fight again, a non boxing participant save the Milk Fund squabble.

Dempsey did janitorial services for Young Peter Jackson in Salt Lake City as a teen, and most assuredly must have sparred with fighters there including black fighters, even Young Jackson himself under the guise of Kid Blackie in fight substitutions, but I don't know if that has or could be proven.

The Milk Fund Exhibition was on 4th July 1918
Dempsey was already contracted to fight Porky Flynn 2 days later in Phliadelphia.

Your statement " Jeannette was already inactive, nor did he ever return to the ring for another fight again," is totally wrong.
Johnson had fought Jack Thompson on1st of April of that year and would fight 6 times that year .

Jeannette fought and beat Kid Norfolk14 days after the Milk Fund debacle.

Jeannette fought until1922 having his last fight on the first of June of that year.
Yer Welcome!!!!

[JAB5239]

I see it as the seeds of doubt were sown. At that time when the color line existed many fighters that would not give title shots MAY have experienced doubt and worry. Not out of physical fear of a black opponent, but because of backlash from friends, family and the white community in general. They didn't want to chance the possibility of shame by losing to a black man that was as a race looked down upon and thought to be less than the white race. This goes for white promoters and managers as well. It was especially prevalent as heavyweight as that was the greatest prize in the world. This of course is me taking a stab at this as I am no sociologist.

[max baer]

I see it as the seeds of doubt were sown. At that time when the color line existed many fighters that would not give title shots MAY have experienced doubt and worry. Not out of physical fear of a black opponent, but because of backlash from friends, family and the white community in general. They didn't want to chance the possibility of shame by losing to a black man that was as a race looked down upon and thought to be less than the white race. This goes for white promoters and managers as well. It was especially prevalent as heavyweight as that was the greatest prize in the world. This of course is me taking a stab at this as I am no sociologist.

Yes very true i feel. You got that right.

[max baer]

willie you are very educated on boxing history i cannot compete. my knowledge of the history i picked up seeing this as a kid and reading that over the years. i think it was that white men considered black men to be beast like whereas white men saw themselves as refined and educated and classy.
It is like the way ancient greeks felt about prisoners from certain other countrys as beast more then man or how ****s felt about ***s as inferior. It was like they are not going to fight a beast only other refined cultured white men.
these kind of views make me very upset as it is so hurtful for black men to have to put up with that kind of stuff. that is my thinking.

you know something i learned a few years ago. mike tysons trainer cus d amarto was one of only a few back in the 30's and 40's's who would not play this racist game and he would stay outside with the black fighters in solidarity with their cause. kudos to him.