Who Was The Most Complete Heavyweight Champ Skill Wise?

[QueensburyRules]

Assuming you are right, how is most of that relevant to his skills?

As you broke down with Ali, he was successful due to his athletic ability; which, as noted, was not part of his skill set. But then your breakdown of Louis is to primarily call out his lack of athleticism, which is not the topic at hand.

Its essentially a form of double speak being used in your arguments when taken as a whole.

- - Boxing ain't a decathlon, the premiere all around "athlete" definition. So athleticism gets dumbed down to the lowest common denominator of "the people."

Being the same size and build as Ali, potentially Louis could fight like Ali, but that was never part of his culture. Blacker than Ali stump, the other Joe, Frazier whooped Ali from stem to stern in their Fight of the Century, yet that other Joe one of the most unathletic fighters in history. All Frazier could do was fight and the BTFO of his opponent, and praise the Lord for that when boxing needed it the most.

[Ivich]

- - Boxing ain't a decathlon, the premiere all around "athlete" definition. So athleticism gets dumbed down to the lowest common denominator of "the people."

Being the same size and build as Ali, potentially Louis could fight like Ali, but that was never part of his culture. Blacker than Ali stump, the other Joe, Frazier whooped Ali from stem to stern in their Fight of the Century, yet that other Joe one of the most unathletic fighters in history. All Frazier could do was fight and the BTFO of his opponent, and praise the Lord for that when boxing needed it the most.

Yeah he,"beat him from stem to stern" and spent weeks in the hospital afterwards,Ali had an Xray and was out in an hour.LOL Louis wasn't the same size as Ali nor the same build.Joe was six feet one and a half and when prime 200/205 lbs.
Ali was six feet three and 212lbs.

[QueensburyRules]

Yeah he,"beat him from stem to stern" and spent weeks in the hospital afterwards,Ali had an Xray and was out in an hour.LOL Louis wasn't the same size as Ali nor the same build.Joe was six feet one and a half and when prime 200/205 lbs.
Ali was six feet three and 212lbs.

- - Seen em street clothes together umpteen times and no difference.

Frazier was prediabetic much like Buster Mathis, hence their short careers and lifespans. He was blind in one eye and on medication to control bloodpressure. The intensity of the fight brought his BP to dangerous levels where the docs couldn't figure how to lower it until much later, the only reason for his hospitalization, ie a condition that preceded the Ali fight by several years.

Time to study up or cut bait, the choice is yours.

[Ivich]

- - Seen em street clothes together umpteen times and no difference.

Frazier was prediabetic much like Buster Mathis, hence their short careers and lifespans. He was blind in one eye and on medication to control bloodpressure. The intensity of the fight brought his BP to dangerous levels where the docs couldn't figure how to lower it until much later, the only reason for his hospitalization, ie a condition that preceded the Ali fight by several years.

Time to study up or cut bait, the choice is yours.

You've seen an old Joe Louis who had added 25lbs to his frame.Yeah good way to assess two men in their prime
Frazier was not blind in one eye for FOTC .You don't know what WTF you;re talking about.So its business as usual for you! You're joke!

[QueensburyRules]

You've seen an old Joe Louis who had added 25lbs to his frame.Yeah good way to assess two men in their prime
Frazier was not blind in one eye for FOTC .You don't know what WTF you;re talking about.So its business as usual for you! You're joke!

- - Louis turns pro 181lb, next year start 195, 3rd year start 200.

Ali turn pro 192, next year start 195, 3rd year start 195.

Ali listed at 1.5 inches taller, 2 inches more reach.

Functionally the same size though I could see U shrinking before a fellow a half inch taller and 3 lbs heavier.

Joe Frazier couldn't pass an eye exam whether for driving or boxing without cheating.

Could U pass any exam?

[Ivich]

- - Louis turns pro 181lb, next year start 195, 3rd year start 200.

Ali turn pro 192, next year start 195, 3rd year start 195.

Ali listed at 1.5 inches taller, 2 inches more reach.

Functionally the same size though I could see U shrinking before a fellow a half inch taller and 3 lbs heavier.

Joe Frazier couldn't pass an eye exam whether for driving or boxing without cheating.

Could U pass any exam?

Louis scaled 210lbs or over 8 times, from1946 onwards during his comeback when he was 32 plus
Ali scaled 210lbs or over 50 times ,from1964 onwards when he was 22.

You really are a complete fool!
Frazier had a driving licence until he died he was caught driving whilst under the influence years after he retired .I repeat he was NOT blind in one eye when he fought Ali in FOTC.
Frazier wore a contact lens in his bad eye , if he was blind he wouldn't need it would he? You muppet!
God you're a ****** man!

I went to college and have 3 A levels,nothing special ,but enough to prove I'm of average intelligence I think.
Let us know when you get out of 5th Grade!Troll!

[QueensburyRules]

Louis scaled 210lbs or over 8 times, from1946 onwards during his comeback when he was 32 plus
Ali scaled 210lbs or over 50 times ,from1964 onwards when he was 22.

You really are a complete fool!
Frazier had a driving licence until he died he was caught driving whilst under the influence years after he retired .I repeat he was NOT blind in one eye when he fought Ali in FOTC.
Frazier wore a contact lens in his bad eye , if he was blind he wouldn't need it would he? You muppet!
God you're a ****** man!

I went to college and have 3 A levels,nothing special ,but enough to prove I'm of average intelligence I think.
Let us know when you get out of 5th Grade!Troll!

- - Folks have degrees of legal blindness. Legally blind quite a bit different than being profoundly blind sorta like being legally ****** quite a bit different than being profoundly U.

[Good ol' Douglas]

You got the balls to do a breakdown of Louis like you did for Ali?

I want to start by praising the Brown Bummer, I believe he was ahead of his time technically.

He had some basic guard manipulation techniques like pulling down the opponent’s extended rear hand to clear the lane for his backhand and was less reliant on blocking than most of his contemporaries due to his ability to parry and hand fight (the latter of which he only really used to smother though) and could counterpunch with either hand after catching or slipping.

But almost all of his opponents were of a very low skill level compared to modern boxers. They were stationary targets with minimal head movement, used barely, if any, feints (at best an underutilised soft jab fake or level change), threw a lot of wild, telegraphed power punches and stood at range either fencing/awkwardly pawing or waiting for the opponent to make a move rather than proactively baiting out certain shots to counter or using feints and probes to observe the opponent’s defensive habits and set traps later on. Also, they were fairly small and unathletic, with a few exceptions, compared to their successor heavyweights.

General criticisms of Louis include his slow feet, subpar chin, mediocre footwork (flat-footed, feet coming together, etc.), struggles against good movers (bouts against Conn, Walcott and Charles prove this) and his poor defensive responsibility (low hands after retracting punches and leaving his chin exposed after throwing the right hand or left hook).

Perhaps the most ironic of the criticisms may include the rigidity of his stance that makes W. Klitschko appear slick as baby oil and his constant loss of balance after throwing the right hand like a certain Bronze Bomber. His back foot would lift into the air, sometimes to the point of turning southpaw, which means wasted time resetting. He could get sloppy when trying to finish stunned opponents too. Except Louis is praised as a “mEcHaNiCaL wOnDeR” unlike “stiff robot” Klitschko and not mocked like “windmill” Wilder for his technique... Hmm, wonder why?

Furthermore, I would argue the way he threw his right hand was not even optimally potent like Wilder who gets full extension. Louis threw it in a loopy fashion and seemed to “pull” his punches (perhaps because of his poor balance?) rather than punching through the target.

Now I wish to analyse the specific weaknesses of his style. His crouched stance took his head off the centreline and enabled him to duck to the right. Louis’ preferred method of defence was to slip or parry and smother the opponent’s jab with his rear hand while landing his own in return.

Problem 1: Louis’ crouched stance meant he could not slip to the left or utilise lateral head movement. So his defence patterns would be inherently more predictable, so you could exploit the fact he was only ever going to slip to the outside when punching himself or on the defensive. Also, even after slipping the jab, he was still hittable with an accurate, hastily-delivered right hand.

Problem 2: Louis could not crouch, thereby leaving his head on the line, when throwing the left hook. So he could be countered with ease when he threw combinations or recklessly charged forward, with his only means of defence being to parry/smother your lead hand before clinching.

Problem 3: A defensive system so heavily reliant on parrying and hand fighting in the closed stance matchup is dangerous because feints can easily open your guard and expose the chin while you are extending to intercept their jab. For an MMA example, Pereira’s recent KO of Strickland is evidence of this.

However, a more pertinent example may be of Louis himself getting stopped. Schmeling was able to reveal further flaws inherent to his defence.

A concise description of the finishing sequence:

• Louis parries a jab which blinds him and nicks off the side of his head as he counters with a jab that Schmeling eats (when he should have slipped to the inside), but returns with a fast overhand over the top anyway that Louis could not see or react to which wobbles him hard.
• A few exchanges later, Louis parries the jab with his rear hand before throwing a left hook that partially lands as Schmeling responds with a catch and shoot right hand which pretty much ends the fight.
• Schmeling’s jab was merely a throwaway to gauge the distance and acquire head control so the big shot would land regardless of his vision.

Louis’ style, like all boxers from the pre-WW2 era, is outdated simply because superior techniques have arisen to take their place. Fighters no longer crouch over the waist like the old timers did or throw their hooks with low elbow positioning, just for two examples that can be visually affirmed. Changes in technology like gloves with more padding and thicker ropes have further aided in the evolution of the sport as well. Hence the idea that, in absolute terms, Joe Louis is in the conversation for most technically proficient heavyweights of all time is absurd.

One should be able to give props to the OGs who helped develop pugilism into the science it is today without being afflicted by a nostalgia bias that unduly takes credit away from modern professionals.

[The Old LefHook]

It is good when someone posts a long post you know you needn't read.

[Good ol' Douglas]

It is good when someone posts a long post you know you needn't read.

I know, god forbid someone put any effort into elucidating their opinion beyond some vague wisdom like "Brown Bummer. Perfection".

Posts: 5925, Received: 535

Suggests a lot of pointless, low quality comments. Continue the closed-minded circle jerk, lad.

(Because we all know it is much easier to dismiss something than debunk it when you lack the technical expertise required!)