Who Was The Most Complete Heavyweight Champ Skill Wise?

[QueensburyRules]

- - Still putting in for Super Joe Louis who had all the traditional boxing skills most valued in fighters from day one of his pro debut.

[The Old LefHook]

Perhaps even better would be Evander Holyfield. He could obviously brawl, had a good inside game, could fight from pretty much any range and when he was younger, he was even able to bounce on his toes and move lightly sticking out jabs. Great defensive movement too. Genetically gifted, had amazing atg trainers his whole career. Evander was probably the most talented HW boxer I've ever seen in my lifetime, he had to be to compete and do so well while being outsized in such a strong era.

You don't think Holy lacked good ring generalship?

[BKM-]

You don't think Holy lacked good ring generalship?

That would be his biggest flaw indeed, however I believe this is a problem he corrected a little later on in his career. It was a problem against Qawi, Cooper, Bowe etc. But it wasn't against Foreman, Tyson, Lewis etc.

[tokon]

- - Mike Spinks pitched a shutout on prime Qawi to send him packing to Cruiser.

Tubby Qawi put Vander in ICU in a highly disputed split decision.

Do I have to remind U of Vander heavyweight record yet again?

???

Whilst blatantly being juiced to the gills!

[BKM-]

Whilst blatantly being juiced to the gills!

Speaking of most complete HW, how about a quick thought for most one-dimensional HW ever? Who qualifies more than Tython?

[ShoulderRoll]

Tyson wasn't one dimensional. He could hit hard with both hands, had good defense and head movement, and could punch from angles.

[BKM-]

Tyson wasn't one dimensional. He could hit hard with both hands, had good defense and head movement, and could punch from angles.

He could fight one way: stepping forward. Designed to get a KO early, if not he deteriorates by the mid rounds. It's so one-dimensional and reliant on youthful attributes, pretty much anybody who adopted that style was done as a fighter early.


But don't let me hijack this thread. I'll be excused.

[Anthony342]

He could fight one way: stepping forward. Designed to get a KO early, if not he deteriorates by the mid rounds. It's so one-dimensional and reliant on youthful attributes, pretty much anybody who adopted that style was done as a fighter early.


But don't let me hijack this thread. I'll be excused.

Wlad, Tua? I've heard tell of shortcomings of Ibeabuchi as well.

[Anthony342]

Joe Louis, and it really isn't close in my opinion. Is see Hustle has put up Holmes. Larry was a great champion and highly skilled, but he didn't throw combinations with pinpoint accuracy and devastating power the way Louis did.

The Brown Bomber. Now that was a great fighter.

[The Old LefHook]

I think nobody is going to say Ali because most view his success as being based on athletic ability (speed, quickness, reflexes, etc), as opposed to skill- ie boxing technique and ability outside of athleticism. Many traditionalists view Ali to have poor skills in some aspects because he did things 'wrong', meaning it went against the accepted style of what should be done.

Coincidentally, lack of power would, or at least should, not downgrade Ali too much in this discussion, as that too relies a fair amount on overall athleticism. Although there is a great amount of technique required in delivering said power.

Lack of power is only some of it, mostly for non experts. I have never heard an expert criticize him for lack of power. He lacked other things, like a lefhook and body punching, both of which are highly desirable in a fighter's medicine bag. Sure, you can find him doing both these, if you search, but he never did them on a regular basis or even a sustained period in a particular fight.

Clay was the greatest outside fighter of all time IMO. When you are cruising around your opponent on the outside, no one hits that hard. He was also one of the more effective punchers of all time, which is obviously more important than punching hard. But he was also the most effective outside fighter of AT IMO. He only fought inside when he got older and had to, after the reinstatement of his license.

Don't stop there. His chin was enviable for a boxer. Not many were as sturdy. Remember that he was the best ring general ever as well. Leonard rivals him, but Leonard showed poor ring generalship in his biggest fight, whereas Clay was masterful in his biggy against Foreman. George was considered much more dangerous than Joe had ever been--he was the Frazier-destroyer who had treated Joe like a boy. According to the triangle theory George was supposed to win. But he got out-generaled, pure and simple, by a strategy probably not a single other fighter who ever lived would have employed without being forced to.

As far as this thread is concerned and its qualifications, Clay is too original for the thread. His traditional medicine bag was light. His tricks, as you mention, hailed from his superior athleticism, not tradition. His effectiveness was mostly self-created, self-imagined. He does not stack up as a hard puncher, yet was one of the more effective punchers ever. He beats every guy rated above him in this thread in an actual fight. We will see how those guys like three arrow punches straight into the face with laser accuracy. If Clay aimed for the chin he didn't hit the forehead.

How sure am I? I would bet my life, if several million dollars were also up for grabs to the winning bet, that Clay beats everyone mentioned so far, because I believe he beats everyone anyway.

I have heard all the legitimate arguments against him and all the ******ity and personal biases as well. I have seen Clay fight in real time, and seen everyone after that in real time too. He beats them, from everything I've seen. Clay goes in with any of them knowing he is much faster, though Tunney may be similarly fast.

Some of the fights are bound to be brutal. Any version of Clay (other than novice) up to Foreman will prevail, I believe. I would forecast that his toughest fight among the well-rounded group might be Fury, who has his own store of guile and generalship.