Intelligence In Sports

[The Old LefHook]

Some people will run screaming from this thread to check their Depends. The question is: Are there some sports which require more intelligence than others, and therefore its practitioners are a wee bit smarter than competitors in other sports by and large? And chess is not a sport.

You have to remember actual plays in football. Basketball has plays, too, just not as many. Baseball? A quarterback may be smarter than a tight end by and large. What do you think?

Where does boxing fall in this scheme? Boxing is a very individualistic sport. But what we call intelligence in boxing may mostly be cunning, a closely related phenomenon probably.

Which sport favors smart people more than any other? Is there such a sport that is an obvious winner?

Pool?

[The Old LefHook]

Is daredeviling a sport? How about ice gators?

[DeeMoney]

Couple things: I think we need to differentiate between memorization, intelligence (the ability to memorize and apply knowledge), and creative discernment (the ability to evaluate a situation and come up with the best solution to a problem). Also, I think there is a difference between how much intellect is required to be successful in a sport compared to how sport the average participant is in a given sport. For example golf may not require as much smarts as another sport, but in general it is a lot more pricey to participate in than other sports; that price discrimination probably leads it to being a sport mostly for wealthier people. And if you believe in the bell-curve way of thinking that smarter people tend to be wealthier (relatively speaking when eliminating discrimination) then those who golf for leisure would tend to be smarter than those who bowled for leisure.

If we're strictly talking about the intelligence required to perform the sport on a high level (balancing out for natural athletic ability) I can attest that football does require a lot of memorization and intelligence, and not just from the quarterback. Its not just memorizing plays, but a LOT of film study and recognizing tendencies of opponents and reacting to them under duress with a LOT of variables. Moreover, plays aren't run robotically, so there is a good amount of creative discernment involved as well.

I think sports like basketball and hockey are similar to boxing in that they do require a good amount of intelligence, though probably less than football, yet more creative discernment- ie thinking on the fly and solving the puzzle being presented to you directly with a little less constraint from the play design.

Baseball probably gets less respect in the way of thinking, because there is so much time between event (pitch), that the manager dictates a lot more of the thinking; at least compared to other sports. Though I will add that with all the data and numbers that are poured through in baseball, it as a sport may require the most intelligence. Additionally, the position of catcher in baseball may have to do more thinking than any other position in all of sport.

[The Old LefHook]

Couple things: I think we need to differentiate between memorization, intelligence (the ability to memorize and apply knowledge), and creative discernment (the ability to evaluate a situation and come up with the best solution to a problem). Also, I think there is a difference between how much intellect is required to be successful in a sport compared to how sport the average participant is in a given sport. For example golf may not require as much smarts as another sport, but in general it is a lot more pricey to participate in than other sports; that price discrimination probably leads it to being a sport mostly for wealthier people. And if you believe in the bell-curve way of thinking that smarter people tend to be wealthier (relatively speaking when eliminating discrimination) then those who golf for leisure would tend to be smarter than those who bowled for leisure.

If we're strictly talking about the intelligence required to perform the sport on a high level (balancing out for natural athletic ability) I can attest that football does require a lot of memorization and intelligence, and not just from the quarterback. Its not just memorizing plays, but a LOT of film study and recognizing tendencies of opponents and reacting to them under duress with a LOT of variables. Moreover, plays aren't run robotically, so there is a good amount of creative discernment involved as well.

I think sports like basketball and hockey are similar to boxing in that they do require a good amount of intelligence, though probably less than football, yet more creative discernment- ie thinking on the fly and solving the puzzle being presented to you directly with a little less constraint from the play design.

Baseball probably gets less respect in the way of thinking, because there is so much time between event (pitch), that the manager dictates a lot more of the thinking; at least compared to other sports. Though I will add that with all the data and numbers that are poured through in baseball, it as a sport may require the most intelligence. Additionally, the position of catcher in baseball may have to do more thinking than any other position in all of sport.

This is a terrific, well thought-out post.

I believe yachting would require some skills where trig and geometry might come into play, or easily even calculus. As you point out, it is another sport mainly for the rich, who we concede are by and large smarter anyway.

Anyone good at pool is probably intuitively good with projective geometry. Spatial perception is a skill related to intelligence, but I don't know exactly how. Spatial perception must be a big part of boxing. Cassius Clay had that spatial capacity to an extraordinary degree.

I think you captured the gist of it--many flavors of intelligence interplay in sports simultaneously. I also believe that as a general rule, the dumber you are, the worse you will do in sports. Just like life. Success in sports indicates intelligence too, by and large.

[QueensburyRules]

Couple things: I think we need to differentiate between memorization, intelligence (the ability to memorize and apply knowledge), and creative discernment (the ability to evaluate a situation and come up with the best solution to a problem). Also, I think there is a difference between how much intellect is required to be successful in a sport compared to how sport the average participant is in a given sport. For example golf may not require as much smarts as another sport, but in general it is a lot more pricey to participate in than other sports; that price discrimination probably leads it to being a sport mostly for wealthier people. And if you believe in the bell-curve way of thinking that smarter people tend to be wealthier (relatively speaking when eliminating discrimination) then those who golf for leisure would tend to be smarter than those who bowled for leisure.

If we're strictly talking about the intelligence required to perform the sport on a high level (balancing out for natural athletic ability) I can attest that football does require a lot of memorization and intelligence, and not just from the quarterback. Its not just memorizing plays, but a LOT of film study and recognizing tendencies of opponents and reacting to them under duress with a LOT of variables. Moreover, plays aren't run robotically, so there is a good amount of creative discernment involved as well.

I think sports like basketball and hockey are similar to boxing in that they do require a good amount of intelligence, though probably less than football, yet more creative discernment- ie thinking on the fly and solving the puzzle being presented to you directly with a little less constraint from the play design.

Baseball probably gets less respect in the way of thinking, because there is so much time between event (pitch), that the manager dictates a lot more of the thinking; at least compared to other sports. Though I will add that with all the data and numbers that are poured through in baseball, it as a sport may require the most intelligence. Additionally, the position of catcher in baseball may have to do more thinking than any other position in all of sport.

- - First off, modern MLB/NFL and maybe NBA games are run off algorithms based on various stat parameters. Maybe the coach has final say, but comparing coaches and players of the past who played off intuitive experience to the automatons of today is impossible.

99% of so called intelligent folks can't do more than 20-30 above par in golf at best. Same with major athletes. Conversely the same if top golf pros were to play at the other pro sports. Rick Rhoden a solid MLB pitcher just out of the HOF level set celebrity golf tour records. In 2009 an NFL punter was 2nd ranked and and big lumbering Mark MacGwire was 3rd. Mike Jordan was something like 60th, and he often cited as the best NBA and best athlete in history in spite of a very mediocre MLB minor league level B record of one year.

What Jim Thorpe, Wilt Chamberlain, and Babe Ruth did in the totality of their athletic careers can never be topped. I'm sure Thorpe and Chamberlain played a few games of nondescript golf, but Babe was an avid scratch player of the game.

Intelligence by moderns generally measured by IQ, a very limited testing parameter. Everyone has heard of the idiot savant who is barely average at grade school arithmetic, but given a date in time can tell you within a few seconds what day that was, say a Tuesday. This is nothing that can be taught but rather a indicator of the huge range of natural intelligence of our species.

Boxing has it's naturals, Dempsey, Ali, SRR, yessss, even Joe Frazier, and today Manny Pac and Canelo, and yessss, Joe Calzaghe and many others. Of them, Manny the only one multilingual, trilingual in his case, and yessssss, Vitali a natural with a PhD and trilingual to boot.

Bill James the established proto idiot savant of Baseball stats was talking turn of the 20th Century Rube Waddell, and ungodly strong man who established a HOF career in just 13 yrs in spite of an IQ of 70 that James assigns him. Keep in mind Rube predated IQ tests. Intellectually he was a roustabout always out of sort with organized society. Born on Friday the 13th, he exited life on April Fools in his mid 30s a bit like Mark Twain born during the passing of Haley's Comet to exit upon his return. Twain gave us Huckleberry Finn and Jim still being fought over to this day as well as novelized autobio of Joan of Arc and pure autobio of US Grant, bankrupt after illicit investments now dying with cancer.

Just a few things to consider when considering intelligence. Even Leffy seems to have been partaking of his IQ meds of late.

[DeeMoney]

- - First off, modern MLB/NFL and maybe NBA games are run off algorithms based on various stat parameters. Maybe the coach has final say, but comparing coaches and players of the past who played off intuitive experience to the automatons of today is impossible.

99% of so called intelligent folks can't do more than 20-30 above par in golf at best. Same with major athletes. Conversely the same if top golf pros were to play at the other pro sports. Rick Rhoden a solid MLB pitcher just out of the HOF level set celebrity golf tour records. In 2009 an NFL punter was 2nd ranked and and big lumbering Mark MacGwire was 3rd. Mike Jordan was something like 60th, and he often cited as the best NBA and best athlete in history in spite of a very mediocre MLB minor league level B record of one year.

What Jim Thorpe, Wilt Chamberlain, and Babe Ruth did in the totality of their athletic careers can never be topped. I'm sure Thorpe and Chamberlain played a few games of nondescript golf, but Babe was an avid scratch player of the game.

Intelligence by moderns generally measured by IQ, a very limited testing parameter. Everyone has heard of the idiot savant who is barely average at grade school arithmetic, but given a date in time can tell you within a few seconds what day that was, say a Tuesday. This is nothing that can be taught but rather a indicator of the huge range of natural intelligence of our species.

Boxing has it's naturals, Dempsey, Ali, SRR, yessss, even Joe Frazier, and today Manny Pac and Canelo, and yessss, Joe Calzaghe and many others. Of them, Manny the only one multilingual, trilingual in his case, and yessssss, Vitali a natural with a PhD and trilingual to boot.

Bill James the established proto idiot savant of Baseball stats was talking turn of the 20th Century Rube Waddell, and ungodly strong man who established a HOF career in just 13 yrs in spite of an IQ of 70 that James assigns him. Keep in mind Rube predated IQ tests. Intellectually he was a roustabout always out of sort with organized society. Born on Friday the 13th, he exited life on April Fools in his mid 30s a bit like Mark Twain born during the passing of Haley's Comet to exit upon his return. Twain gave us Huckleberry Finn and Jim still being fought over to this day as well as novelized autobio of Joan of Arc and pure autobio of US Grant, bankrupt after illicit investments now dying with cancer.

Just a few things to consider when considering intelligence. Even Leffy seems to have been partaking of his IQ meds of late.

I like your Waddell reference, I used to be a member of the Rube Waddell research society. I think it goes to show that in sports, often times natural gifts (in his case an unworldly left arm) can ***** all.

Still, I think we are trying to paint with a broad brush here, and just looking at things in general, and often what is required to be successful when balancing out for athletic ability. In other words if we all were roughly equal in athletic ability who would do better, how much of that is based on smarts?

[The Old LefHook]

[QUOTE=QueensburyRules;n31320354]

- - First off, modern MLB/NFL and maybe NBA games are run off algorithms based on various stat parameters. Maybe the coach has final say, but comparing coaches and players of the past who played off intuitive experience to the automatons of today is impossible.

99% of so called intelligent folks can't do more than 20-30 above par in golf at best. Same with major athletes. Conversely the same if top golf pros were to play at the other pro sports. Rick Rhoden a solid MLB pitcher just out of the HOF level set celebrity golf tour records. In 2009 an NFL punter was 2nd ranked and and big lumbering Mark MacGwire was 3rd. Mike Jordan was something like 60th, and he often cited as the best NBA and best athlete in history in spite of a very mediocre MLB minor league level B record of one year.

What Jim Thorpe, Wilt Chamberlain, and Babe Ruth did in the totality of their athletic careers can never be topped. I'm sure Thorpe and Chamberlain played a few games of nondescript golf, but Babe was an avid scratch player of the game.

Intelligence by moderns generally measured by IQ, a very limited testing parameter. Everyone has heard of the idiot savant who is barely average at grade school arithmetic, but given a date in time can tell you within a few seconds what day that was, say a Tuesday. This is nothing that can be taught but rather a indicator of the huge range of natural intelligence of our species.

Boxing has it's naturals, Dempsey, Ali, SRR, yessss, even Joe Frazier, and today Manny Pac and Canelo, and yessss, Joe Calzaghe and many others. Of them, Manny the only one multilingual, trilingual in his case, and yessssss, Vitali a natural with a PhD and trilingual to boot.

Bill James the established proto idiot savant of Baseball stats was talking turn of the 20th Century Rube Waddell, and ungodly strong man who established a HOF career in just 13 yrs in spite of an IQ of 70 that James assigns him. Keep in mind Rube predated IQ tests. Intellectually he was a roustabout always out of sort with organized society. Born on Friday the 13th, he exited life on April Fools in his mid 30s a bit like Mark Twain born during the passing of Haley's Comet to exit upon his return. Twain gave us Huckleberry Finn and Jim still being fought over to this day as well as novelized autobio of Joan of Arc and pure autobio of US Grant, bankrupt after illicit investments now dying with cancer.

Just a few things to consider when considering intelligence. Even Leffy seems to have been partaking of his IQ meds of late.[/QUOTE

What did I expect, that you were going to make sense?

[QueensburyRules]

I like your Waddell reference, I used to be a member of the Rube Waddell research society. I think it goes to show that in sports, often times natural gifts (in his case an unworldly left arm) can ***** all.

Still, I think we are trying to paint with a broad brush here, and just looking at things in general, and often what is required to be successful when balancing out for athletic ability. In other words if we all were roughly equal in athletic ability who would do better, how much of that is based on smarts?

- - Interesting. IQ smarts are nice and enhancing, but not always the dominating factors in athletic excellence. I hold learned intuition and the Father of us all, instincts the most important factor of athletic excellence.

Modern education tries to bypass instinct, but end of the day instincts are mostly gonna have the final say.

[Willie Pep 229]

I like your Waddell reference, I used to be a member of the Rube Waddell research society. I think it goes to show that in sports, often times natural gifts (in his case an unworldly left arm) can ***** all.

Still, I think we are trying to paint with a broad brush here, and just looking at things in general, and often what is required to be successful when balancing out for athletic ability. In other words if we all were roughly equal in athletic ability who would do better, how much of that is based on smarts?

Is being coachable a sign of intelligence?

What if a player's aggroance makes him uncoachable, is aggroance then a sign of ******ity?

Aggroance is always considered a sign of 'willfully ******ity' - so then is willfull ******ity a sign of less intelligence?

Values can make one act against their own best interest . . . acting against one's own best interest is an act of willfull ******ity.

Values offten make one willfully ******, so then are only sociopaths actually intelligence?

I am not sure if we actually even have a true definition of what intelligence is.

Successful athletes tend to come across as brighter than the average bear but that may be nothing more then media experience.

[DeeMoney]

This is a terrific, well thought-out post.

I believe yachting would require some skills where trig and geometry might come into play, or easily even calculus. As you point out, it is another sport mainly for the rich, who we concede are by and large smarter anyway.

Anyone good at pool is probably intuitively good with projective geometry. Spatial perception is a skill related to intelligence, but I don't know exactly how. Spatial perception must be a big part of boxing. Cassius Clay had that spatial capacity to an extraordinary degree.

I think you captured the gist of it--many flavors of intelligence interplay in sports simultaneously. I also believe that as a general rule, the dumber you are, the worse you will do in sports. Just like life. Success in sports indicates intelligence too, by and large.

Part of me wants to write about how smart you need to be in NASCAR just to rib you (seeing your taglines); but the yachting one is interesting. I have no real knowledge of the sport, but could see your point, it seems they have to read and recognize angles well