Who Can Handle Vitali in the Historical Pantheon?

[LondonRingRules]

The comeback Ali beat Foreman and Frazier but would have little chance against Vitali? lol interesting to say the least. I'll also ask you, who did Vitlali ever beat as good as Liston, Frazier, Foreman or even Norton? I ask because you seem to like downgrading and rewriting Ali's career(Mildenberg had Ali in trouble?) as I've seen you do many times before. Which is peculiar since you seem to be so impressed with Vitali's career when his biggest wins are over Corey Sanders and Gomez. And you can say whatever you want about the Lewis fight but Vitali lost to the worst version of Lennox Lewis who came in at 256 pounds. You give Vitali credit for that fight as of he won it.[/I][/B]

** My dearest Joey, your confusion is bleeding all over the place.

Who did Ali ever beat as good as Liston going into Liston 1? Who did Leon ever beat as good as Ali going into Ali 1?

There is no rewriting of history save by fanboys who don't know history, so they make it up on the fly in their virtual worlds. If you review the Cosell broadcasts, poor chap about has a coronary at one point when Ali was hurt. He's almost in tears over Ali's poor performance. This doesn't "prove" Ali was hurt or performing badly, but I seriously doubt Mildy would have become the German hero he did in this fight had Ali steamrolled him. Have to read dozens of bios to hear Dundee, ect, talking about how Mildy had Ali hurt.

Son, you must be awfully young if you don't remember that Tyson pulled out of the Boswell bout in a co-promotion with Lewis of their rematch Lewis was trying to force Tyson into. Vitali stepped in on 3 weeks notice and was upgraded to Lewis a week later when Johnson pulled out.

In your case Joey, what seems like a downgrade of Ali in your little fan world, is actually a properly presented assessment of his strengths against Vitali's. Who cares of Vitali lost on a cut to a Lewis who you say was the worst version of Lewis? Children bubbling over in singsong means something to them, but is not likely to be understood in the real world.

The worst versions of Lewis were when he was sparked, but he was actually doing fine in those bouts before the big punch. Vitali/Lewis was an extension of the Mercer/Bruno fights Lewis had where they were able to box with him. Vitali took it further before the cut got out of hand because he's better.

Now, Joey, recall, I gave the prime Ali a fair chance to beat Vitali because of his elusiveness and combined quickness. Ropa dope Ali won't work on Vitali any more than it worked on Frazier. Ropa dope sullies Ali's reputation for me.

At any rate, you've confused legacy of old HOF fighters like Nat Fleischer used to do when he made his lists of greatest heavies, low ranking former modern greats Dempsey and Louis in favor of older legends like Johnson, Fitz and Corbett.

Vitali may lack some glossy names, but only because Lewis retired and Tyson and H G Holyroid wouldn't fight him. You see Joey, heroes get elevated so highly that the common man needs to see them getting beat before they can believe in the new guy. Nobody accepted Johnson any more than they did Hart or Burns. Jeffries had to come back to make the legend of Johnson just like the old champ came back for Rocky and Holmes.

Keep in mind Joey, nobody ranked Lewis higher than their paperboy until he beat the long lost in the plot Tyson. Boxing fans and historians are funny that way which is why they keep the unlicensed H G Holyroid up there claiming silly championship status for him when he can barely stand upright and throw a punch anymore. His opponents don't want a tragedy, so wear the cuffs while his poor fanboys don't care a whit for his health and will need to see him go splotto to believe it's all over.

Such is the nature of the beast, Joey. In the absence of glossy names, the brothers have themselves standing out in a new heavy landscape of dreadnaughts. It's a new era Joey that Americans have been unable to compete in. As such, these guys, including Lewis, they are seen as pioneers.

[joseph5620]

[QUOTE=joseph5620;5450819]Who did Ali ever beat as good as Liston going into Liston 1?


The topic wasn't about 19-21 year old Ali was it?


Who did Leon ever beat as good as Ali going into Ali 1?

I don't recall talking about Leon Spinks career. Stay on topic,please.


Son, you must be awfully young if you don't remember that Tyson pulled out of the Boswell bout in a co-promotion with Lewis of their rematch Lewis was trying to force Tyson into. Vitali stepped in on 3 weeks notice and was upgraded to Lewis a week later when Johnson pulled out.

Tyson didn't pull out three weeks before Lewis fought Klitschko and Tyson was NEVER scheduled to fight Boswell.Vitali was scheduled to fight Boswell on the undercard of Lewis-Johnson. When Johnson got injured the Lewis -Klitschko fight was made. Both fighters fought on three weeks notice after training for other opponents. Like I said, you make things up as you go along with no shame.


The worst versions of Lewis were when he was sparked, but he was actually doing fine in those bouts before the big punch. Vitali/Lewis was an extension of the Mercer/Bruno fights Lewis had where they were able to box with him. Vitali took it further before the cut got out of hand because he's better.



Lewis was 29 when he fought Bruno,30 when he fought Mercer and nearly 38 when he fought Klitschko. The fact that you're comparing those fights speaks for itself.


MISCELLANY Vitali Klitschko is getting his chance to fight Lennox Lewis earlier than expected. Lewis will defend his World Boxing Council heavyweight title against Klitschko June 21 in Los Angeles. Lewis's scheduled opponent, Kirk Johnson, dropped out of the fight after tearing a chest muscle in training last week. [B]The 6-foot- 7-inch Klitschko, the No. 1 contender, was scheduled to fight on the undercard against Cedric Boswell

(INSIDE BOXING-May 06, 2003) - A few days ago it was announced that Vitali Klitschko would be fighting on the Lennox Lewis vs. Kirk Johnson undercard. Today, InsideBoxing.com makes it known who he will face and he could not have chosen a more dangerous opponent.
Finally, there is a heavyweight out there with the courage to take on rising star Cedric Boswell (21-0, 16 KOs). Its a done deal! Vitali Klitschko (32-1, 31 KOs), and viewed by many as the #1 heavyweight in the world, and the biggest threat to Lennox Lewis, will take on Boswell as part of the Lewis vs. Johnson card on June 21, 2003 at the Staple Center in Los Angeles, California.


Vitali fought on 3 weeks notice huh?

[LondonRingRules]

Tyson didn't pull out three weeks before Lewis fought Klitschko and Tyson was NEVER scheduled to fight Boswell.Vitali was scheduled to fight Boswell on the undercard of Lewis-Johnson. When Johnson got injured the Lewis -Klitschko fight was made. Both fighters fought on three weeks notice after training for other opponents. Like I said, you make things up as you go along with no shame.

** Joey, son, step away from the diapers and into the world of training pants.

I never stated Tyson pulled out 3 weeks before, I stated Vitali stepped in for Tyson on 3 weeks notice. Now, you do show supporting documentation that he was talked about as early as May 5 or so, about the length of Lewis' training camp.

I only get my news from F1ght New$, not preferring the endless parade of fanboy rumours floated by other sites and FN archives are impossible to access. I understand you were too young to remember Joey, but Vitali was Lewis' last mandatory of his last belt, the WBC that he refused to face for going on a year. Many fights rumoured to have been made and cancelled by Lewis with Vitali claiming Lewis had backed out of two contracts forcing Vitali to sue.

Here's 3 reports mentioning Tyson on the undercard. I favour the last one which is an AP release May 15, 5 weeks before the match, a more credible report. I suspect I got my 3 weeks figure from when Vitali arrives in LA to train which was probably when the contract was officially signed. One week later the Boswell fight is cancelled and Vitali Lewis is on.

Originally Tyson was scheduled against Maskaev, but he objected so they brought in Boswell at which point he backs out leaving them scrambling for a week or three. With the three biggest cards cancelled and Lewis finally agreeing to fight Vitali, he was pulling out all the stops trying to yank everyone over, suing Tyson to force him to rematch and then suing King after Tyson pulled out, claiming King forced Tyson out and Vitali having to sue to get his shot, a complete fiasco.

Now, don't bother coming back until your properly potty trained Joey as this a waste of my time.

[portuge puncher]

tyson and foreman own those bitchs,
in there primes both could KO either,

ali would find a way to outbox them

[joseph5620]

[QUOTE=LondonRingRules;5458890]** Joey, son, step away from the diapers and into the world of training pants.

I never stated Tyson pulled out 3 weeks before, I stated Vitali stepped in for Tyson on 3 weeks notice. Now, you do show supporting documentation that he was talked about as early as May 5 or so, about the length of Lewis' training camp.

Which still makes your statement untrue. Vitali did not step in on three weeks notice for Tyson and that's the whole point.

[Dave Rado]

** I've watched enough Bowe to understand he was a mentally limited fighter managed by a thug quite fortunate to come along as the overrated Holy was weakening.

The "overrated Holy" as you call him, when way past his prime, gave Lewis two very tough fights, and although Lewis was robbed in the first fight, many boxing experts scored the second fight to Holy. Prime for prime, most experts would favour the "overrated Holy" to beat Lewis.

[BennyST]

** Joey, son, step away from the diapers and into the world of training pants.

When wrong and in doubt, just be patronising.

[LondonRingRules]

The "overrated Holy" as you call him, when way past his prime, gave Lewis two very tough fights, and although Lewis was robbed in the first fight, many boxing experts scored the second fight to Holy. Prime for prime, most experts would favour the "overrated Holy" to beat Lewis.

** Can't really make a case for Holy having much of a prime in the heavy division he's so up and down in it.

They're only 3 yrs apart in age and had near identical records with Lewis having had more punishment with more heavy fights than a LH/cruiser moving up. Long in the tooth Tony Tucker gave Lewis many more problems than Holy ever did. Lewis was downgraded by judges for not engaging in a slugfest against the smaller man, but he only slugs when the other fighter forces him into a shootout. Holy was easy to control with a jab and clinches.

Holy's very next fight after Lewis, he beats Ruiz and gets much credit for that 4th title that everyone touts. Me thinks it takes a mean spirit to deny Lewis credit. Holy was only 2 yrs off the Tyson series which is how he got overrated, and 1 yr off the Moorer rematch. He was operated near the same level as he was against Cooper, Holmes, and Bowe, not exactly looking like the sharpest tool in the box.

Maybe you can nail down Holy's prime for us to better operate. I would remind you that all the so called experts you tout have to work for a living. The true experts make their living betting the odds and they ain't gonna be on TV yakking about nonsense.

Put it another way, the only time Lewis was ever beat was with 2 perfect straight rights in fights he was controlling. He was never outboxed or outslugged. Holy doesn't have that kind of one punch power, not even close.

Before winning the title he had a pretty good run of KOs against the usual contender fare. After the title he can barely buy a KO. He was outboxed and outslugged by Bowe, outboxed by Moorer, outboxed by Ruiz and so on and so forth. Any fighter always has a chance, but under the normal circumstance, best to best, Lewis 99 out of 100 fights.

[LondonRingRules]

When wrong and in doubt, just be patronising.

** I proved my point Benny. That card was a complete fiasco with top cards cancelled and lawsuits flying everywhere.

Shoddy boxing journalism is contaminated by contradictory fanboy reports of fights that never come off as they scramble to scoop each other. I used an AP report that is more respected than ******** boxing. It got me near my target which is like trying nail down jello.

[res]

** Can't really make a case for Holy having much of a prime in the heavy division he's so up and down in it.

They're only 3 yrs apart in age and had near identical records with Lewis having had more punishment with more heavy fights than a LH/cruiser moving up. Long in the tooth Tony Tucker gave Lewis many more problems than Holy ever did. Lewis was downgraded by judges for not engaging in a slugfest against the smaller man, but he only slugs when the other fighter forces him into a shootout. Holy was easy to control with a jab and clinches.

Holy's very next fight after Lewis, he beats Ruiz and gets much credit for that 4th title that everyone touts. Me thinks it takes a mean spirit to deny Lewis credit. Holy was only 2 yrs off the Tyson series which is how he got overrated, and 1 yr off the Moorer rematch. He was operated near the same level as he was against Cooper, Holmes, and Bowe, not exactly looking like the sharpest tool in the box.

Maybe you can nail down Holy's prime for us to better operate. I would remind you that all the so called experts you tout have to work for a living. The true experts make their living betting the odds and they ain't gonna be on TV yakking about nonsense.

Put it another way, the only time Lewis was ever beat was with 2 perfect straight rights in fights he was controlling. He was never outboxed or outslugged. Holy doesn't have that kind of one punch power, not even close.

Before winning the title he had a pretty good run of KOs against the usual contender fare. After the title he can barely buy a KO. He was outboxed and outslugged by Bowe, outboxed by Moorer, outboxed by Ruiz and so on and so forth. Any fighter always has a chance, but under the normal circumstance, best to best, Lewis 99 out of 100 fights.

I think the general consensus is that the Tyson v Holyfield match was between two fighters which were past their prime. The victory is touted because this fact is believed to have placed them on equal footing.