Who Can Handle Vitali in the Historical Pantheon?

[BattlingNelson]

i have a question:

does anyone care what LRR says? At all?

I do. I always enjoy reading his posts. You can agree or disagree with him but there's no denying that LRR knows a ton of boxing.

[BattlingNelson]

** I here to tell you, I've not only lived through the Larry era, but studied him in retrospect more fully, and the guy was padding out his career, even in his comeback. There was no chance whatsoever he had to win a title back though I got a chuckle at how much trouble he gave the overrated Holy.

Here is the scoring for Cooney at the stoppage. 113-111 | 113-111 | 115-109 Keep in mind that Cooney was deducted at least 3 points for low blows. Without the penalties, Cooney was officially winning by at least 114-113, 114-113, 112-115. Save for the flash KD, Holmes barely touched Cooney until rd 12, and not that much.

Who knows how much the low blows took out of Holmes? They did have an effect that's for sure.

Holmes "movement" may have been OK in his 20s, but he was pretty much the plodder for most of his title fights which is what he's touted for. His jab top shelf, but his skills were only good. No headmovement, no left hook. Little body work. Average inside skills bolstered by a first rate uppercut. Good grappling instincts. Game was 75% was jab, 15% grab, 10% rights, his strong points.

Add a superchin and fantastic powers of recovery.

Vitali beat excellent boxer/punchers Larry Donald and Kirk Johnson whom you could plug into Larry's schedule starting with Norton on his last legs and they could march through Larry's comp with less difficulty than Larry often had. They had some size on Larry as well. Vitali has been the only fighter to stop them in their careers.

Both Johnson and Donald would IMO lose clearly to Holmes. I think you'd agree that there's a gulf in class and that to me makes your comparison less viable.

Getting back to movement, prime Byrd quicker of hand and foot and much more elusive than upright Larry and Vitali dominated Byrd until the point of his injury. Not only does Vitali have a 94% KO ratio, but that's about the same percent of rounds that he wins, always near a shutout on the cards.

Byrd couldn't crack an egg with his punch. Again Larry is far superiour.

Wlad beat Byrd twice, barely dropping a round, and beat a trickier, bigger, stronger southpaw boxer in Thompson, and undefeated Iggy too. Early on he beat Axel Shultz who many thought outboxed Foreman for his title. Wlad didn't just beat these guys, he KTFO all but Iggy after widely outscoring them.

In fact, the hurdle Larry has to overcome is not only size, strength, and power, but the fact that the brothers are boxers first who happen to be some of the most accurate punchers in history.

Of course they would provide a riddle for any champion in history. Larry just possesses some tools they've never seen before. Specifically the great jab, a reach advantage to complement it, determination and stamina. Vitali couldn't KO Byrd (who has an excellent chin) so what should indicate him stopping Holmes?


So it becomes my sad duty as the bearer of bad news to set the Holmes record straight. Heavyweight boxing has dramatically changed starting with the rise of Lewis. Tyson can be seen as the last of the old school heavies, the perfect fulcrum to the new era. The new heavies are struggling to learn what works best in this era and the brothers have it figured out best of all.

But is it a change for the better? There's noone with a great jab and stamina in this era other than the klit's themselves.

[StarshipTrooper]

I do. I always enjoy reading his posts. You can agree or disagree with him but there's no denying that LRR knows a ton of boxing.

The problem is that everything he knows about boxing is dead wrong. Some people may be amused by the Village Idiot but most people with common sense tell the Village Idiot to shut up and sit down. My having LRR on ignore is the equivelant of telling the Village Idiot to shut up and sit down. The man simply has nothing of intelligence to offer in any of his posts.

Ever wonder why you don't see Hawkins posting on here anymore? It's because he got tired of dealing with LRR's ******ity and then watching established posters fawn over how "great" a poster LRR is. He may have at one time been a fine poster but if so that was a long time in the past: All he does now is spout crackpot garbage that leaves one wondering if he's ever watched a fight objectively in his life.

Poet

[-Swizzy-]

i have a question:

does anyone care what LRR says? At all?

yes, I respect his posts and insight even if I don't agree them. he is very analytical and delivers his point across very well.

[fight_professor]

Every fighter has a weakness. Vitali is big, powerful but slow and mechanical. A fighter fleet of foot would cause him trouble like Bryd did. Ali destroys him in a 1 sided humiliation.

Joe Louis and Holmes easily too.

His size may cause issues for the smaller guys, Tyson, Frazier, Rock, Dempsey etc, but can Vitali survive a sustained body assault?

I'd back Mike, always ok against big guys, esp slow ones. His power would tell.

That said, its clear that on a who beats who listing, Vitali is up there.

[Ivansmamma]

Ali, Lewis, Foreman, Liston, Holmes. Maybe Tyson. Not to many others. Vitali would destroy guys like Fraizer, Dempsey, Patterson, Marciano who are to small to handle the biggest guys of today.

[CCobra]

Dempsey has a good shot of beating Vitali. Dempsey was 6’1 and weighed close to 200lbs but under modern training methods and whatnot a guy of his size could make the 200lbs limit easily. Dempsey has a history of beating bigger men such as Jess Willard who measures a massive 6’6 and 1 half. He had incredible size for a man of his era, matches with his weight of almost 245lbs and you have a big guy here. Dempsey also sparred with Bill Tate who weighed, at best, in the mid 240lbs also entered the ring measuring 6’6 and 1 half. Dempsey seemed to find it easier to slay giants due to his tricky style of fighting. His bobbing and weaving and his granite chin allowed him to avoid shots coming in and land some heavy shots coming in. If he had to take shots then he proved throughout his career that his chin was more then adequate enough to take any.

Dempsey made a career of beating bigger guys. His most important win is against the massive Willard and in terms of Boxing history; his most significant win is against Firpo who himself was almost 6’3 in size. He also beat Carl Morris on numerous occasions (I’ll have to check up his record to see just how many times) as well as Fulton who, if memory serves me right, was 6’6 himself. Dempsey fought men who were incredibly large for his era and would still be considered large fighters. These are guys who could stand up against Vitali and only give away an inch in height and 3 or 4lbs in weight. Dempsey slayed them and sparred with big men like Bill Tate (who has fought the likes of Langford, Wills, Gunboat Smith, Norfolk, John L. Johnson, Jeanette and also holds victories over some of them. Not to mention Dempsey fought Andre Anderson (6’4) to a no decision but was awarded the decision by the local papers. I think historically speaking Dempsey handled big men well simply because his style allowed him to handle those bigger men. The bob and weave style was most effective against bigger fighters because the troubles they have with a constantly moving target and it enables Dempsey to get inside and work Vitali.

Stylistically speaking Dempsey had a come forward style that can cause problems to Vitali. Dempsey could **** with both fists, is among the best body workers in Heavyweight history, had a granite chin and was a rugged fighter.

I also think several other fighters could defeat Klitschko from the list you mentioned and I will get around to posting my reasoning as soon as I can.

[LondonRingRules]

Both Johnson and Donald would IMO lose clearly to Holmes. I think you'd agree that there's a gulf in class and that to me makes your comparison less viable.

...........Larry just possesses some tools they've never seen before. Specifically the great jab, a reach advantage to complement it, determination and stamina. Vitali couldn't KO Byrd (who has an excellent chin) so what should indicate him stopping Holmes?

But is it a change for the better? There's noone with a great jab and stamina in this era other than the klit's themselves.

** There's a gulf in class between Patterson and Johnson/Donald as well, or Fitz and Johnson/Donald, but the thing about class is it's subjectivity. Class may be Guns and Roses for you, and The Beatles for me.

Plug Johnson and Donald into Patterson/Holmes title comp, and who would give them more than a bother? You don't think they could handle defenses against Hurricane Jackson, Pete Rademacher, Roy Harris, Ocasio, 19-8 Weaver, Leon, Scott Frank and so on? Oh, I figure Liston and Spoon could give them a fair tussle, but when was a boxing match decided solely on class?

Success in life is as much about timing of birth and geography as anything. Where was the Holmes class through 77? When was it that people stood up and said, "Holmes has class?" Was Holmes win over Norton better than Donald's over Holy?

The only thing Holmes possesses that would give the brothers more than a bother is a sharp jab and a will to win. Did Norton's lack of boxing acumen and will to win cost him his title against Larry? Fitz against Jeffries?

Holmes against the brothers is a boxer vs boxer match up with Larry being from the oldtimer era and they being from a modern era. Different rules, conditions, and regulations that generally have not favored a fighter of Holmes' size. Holy of similar size and basic attributes fared poorly against the supersized heavies. As I noted, Larry officially was being outboxed by Cooney when you factor out the KD and points deductions. Many claim that Spoon and Williams outboxed him before Spinks got to him. Nobody has ever outboxed either brother. Vitali ahead on every card he contested, almost always near a shutout with two losses by extraordinary unrelated injury scenarios requiring major surgery. Nobody would dismiss the chance he could suffer an injury against Holmes, but would you bet on it?

As far as modern changes go, better or worse is personal preference. Does anyone really want to sit through 15 rds of Holmes/Cobb or Ali/Young?

Or perhaps you want to return to 8 oz gloves, same day weighins and round by round scoring? Or bare knucks and London Prize Ring Rules? Perhaps some do, but then some are moving to the UFC/MMA. Personal preferences, not better or worse.

As far as a jab and stamina goes, the Klitschkos receive some criticism on both fronts there. Niko has never lacked for stamina or a jab, but that's heresy in some camps to suggest he's anything but a clubfighter. JC Gomez and Tony Thompson have excellent jabs and stamina, but perhaps they don't count because they're lefties, which is another change in modern boxing. Do you want to go back to the time when lefties aren't allowed to make credible matches?

Better, or worse?

[BennyST]

Unfortunately, young Bowe's management feared him being exposed against big sluggers, so I wouldn't qualify him as having any history of superiority over big men seeing how the only prime big man he met not only outboxed him easily, but beat the bejibberjabbers out of him and into retirement in what should have been his physical prime. Many close to him claimed he began showing signs of dementia around this time. Given the lack of significant comp prior to Golota save for the smallish Holy, I cannot support that this guy was in the class of the great champions who stalked and terrorized the division in the past.

You should try watching some of his fights from his prime until the fights with Golota before commenting on his career and his condition.

He was one of those unfortunate fighters that deteriorate very quickly well before the usual age, much like Vargas, Morales etc.

If you compare his first fight with Holyfield to any of his fights with Golota there is quite an amazing difference in, not only his physical conditioning and shape, but his overall skills, reflexes, speed, stamina, footwork....etc etc.

He was a very different fighter at that young age than when he fought Holyfield. Sad but true.

[Bad Boy Dazza]

Maybe some remedial English lessons may help your lack of comprehension to the implications of your own posts. Just take your *****-slapping and move on.

Poet

Actually I agree with him. You're full of it.