Top 10 Heavies from best to worst

[hhascup]

Wow, that's awesome... Seriously. Whoa. I'm impressed. And I'll go with 14.5" and 90-ish, personally. Ha. He ****ing PUNISHED Wepner, btw. He was getting TIRED of BEATING HIM TO A PULP. Not from the fight itself, just from the fact that he was getting tired of breaking facial bones (mentally!).

Yeah, he looked slow, he looked like ONE-THIRTIETH (tops) the fighter he was.. WHEN HE FOUGHT WEPNER!!! He didn't even "lose" to Ali. He just quit. He couldn't even take a proper dive.. And I think that is why I respect him like I do. He just faked an injury that was never proved rather than take a legit loss. His 2nd fight's dive was much the same way, except he was told not to quit but to "lose" and he did the best job of quitting while getting a 10 count possible.

I do agree that he is under rated some, as he did stop Cleveland Williams twice (2nd & 3rd rounds), Patterson twice (both in the 1st round), Zora Folley (in round 3), Nino Valdez (in round 3) and decisioned Machen in 10 rounds.

Machen gave him some trouble, as he was a pretty good boxer and really couldn't catch Eddie with one of his big blows.

Boxing experts were saying that he belonged being rated with the all-time Greats as Dempsey and Louis. Just about everyone picked Liston to do the same to Ali, BUT Ali was just too fast for him.

PS- I also have the gloves that was used against Sugar Ray Robinson, when he fought Tony Riccio and the gloves that Tom Sharkey used when he stopped Kid McCoy back in 1899.

[-CANE-]

True, true. If we're talking champs then it's Ali or Louis (modern era) or Rocky. If it's ability then Frazier, Liston, Tyson. It's completely different things.. I think the best are the ability guys without the GREAT physical tools (Frazier was much more self-made then either Tyson (who was already viewed as someone with potential at 12) or monster-man Liston) and the champs without the great natural ability (Rocky had an awkward style that no one would teach in a gym, etc..).

Champs yes 2 stand out at the top of the tree Ali and Louis, then Lewis and Holmes stand out from the rest. Closely followed by Tyson and Holyfield. Remember this is just on years reigned,defenses made and how many times they were champs. Ability wise in no particular order as I'm not gonna do it off the top of my head, I'll need to sit down again and analyse all of them taking into account the era they fought in which is important as boxing has evolved. But all these fighters were extremely talented for their time and overall. Corbett,Jeffries,Johnson,Louis,Charles,Maricano (in a crude sort of way),Liston,Ali,Holmes,Tyson,Holyfield and Lewis. These fighters were the most talented and will need alot of analysis from me.

[hhascup]

Have you ever learned the facts? Frazier's BP was so high in the weeks before the fight that he would never of even been able to fight.. again, in today's world.

Plus, wow, Ali didn't win the rest of the round. Frazier was pressing for the KO at that point because of the fact it was the 15th round, and he would've gotten it eventually. Even with his bum body he woulda' put Ali down with another 180 seconds, hell, another 60 seconds.

I think you should watch the tape again. Frazier knocked Ali down in the first 25 seconds of the 15th round and Frazier couldn't get the job done.

After approx. a minute and a half, it was Ali that was doing the hitting, not Frazier.

[-CANE-]

I've gotta get off now, hopefully we can do this again tomorrow guys.

[StarshipTrooper]

I think you should watch the tape again. Frazier knocked Ali down in the first 25 seconds of the 15th round and Frazier couldn't get the job done.

After approx. a minute and a half, it was Ali that was doing the hitting, not Frazier.

An excellent touche Harry! This guy has been waging a hater's vendetta against Ali for more than a month now.

Poet

[Brunswick Assassin]

Here's my list of the All-Time top 10 Heavies:

1) Jack Dempsey
2) Joe Louis
3) Muhammad Ali
4) Jack Johnson
5) Ezzard Charles
6) Jersey Joe Walcott
7) Harry Greb
8) Rocky Marciano
9) Young Mike Tyson
10) Joe Frazier

Sam Langford, Evander Holyfield, George Foreman and Jim Jefferies also deserve special mention.

Rankings don't really count for **** with this list cos all these guys have their own special place in Boxing History.

[LondonRingRules]

Tyson had trouble catching up with Tillis, Green, Smith, Tucker, Ruddock & Douglas. Ali was a LOT BETTER then any of those, so I don't see much of a problem for him keeping away from Tyson.

In the bout with Tillis, 2 Judges scored the bout 6-4, so it was pretty close.

** Henry, some points.

First Tyson was "a LOT BETTER" than the Tyson of Ruddock and Douglas. Not the same fighter. At any rate he had the KO of Ruddock the first fight, being well ahead on points, and he won a wide decision over Ruddock the 2nd fight, breaking his jaw and a rib with a couple of KDs. He was in terrible shape for Douglas, documented in the media if you paid attention in the day, but in any real world, he KOed Douglas who wasn't up until 14 sec after Tyson put him down. The ref was horrible, allowing Douglas to land flush shots on Tyson during the break with no warning or penalty. I've timed that KD several times, and Tyson is actually up and waved off 1 sec earlier than Douglas was allowed to continue, not that I think it made any difference at that point.

We can never get anywhere if you want to match up degraded versions of Tyson unless I drag out degraded versions of Ali, so how low do you want to go, 36 yr old Ali of Spinks against 39 yr old Tyson of McBride? I would prefer not to talk past you and address your points.

Tillis and Green were when Tyson was 19. Tillis an experienced contender and Green a huge, talented prospect. He knocked down the tricky Tillis and secured a more comprehensive win over Quick than did the 21 yr old Clay against Jones. Now, that was one of Clay's earliest controversial fights. Really couldn't pick a winner in that fight. Tyson beat Green comprehensively also, a one sided points win over Green who was hurt early and went into a shell.

Same thing happend to Tucker and Smith, he hurt them early, and both huge strong fighters went into their shell, Tucker doing his running Ali impersonation, and Smith hanging on like some massive grizzly. Tucker was one of the most impressive talented fighters in history dispite your dismissal of him not being as good as Ali. He has a bad story like Tyson, father/trainer/manager makes off with all his earnings, destroys his trust and confidence, yet years later a much lessor version of Tucker goes the distance against the fighter of the 90s, Lewis.

You dismiss Tyson as a 4 rd fighter, yet ignore his comprehensive decisions over Tillis and Green, and his KO over another huge fighter, Ribalta in the 10th. He was only 19 for those fights. You ever check out what Ali was doing at 19? You can't have it both ways Henry, also dismissing his 12 rd points blowouts of Smith and Tucker because he wasn't able to KO them.

Now, if I wanted everything my way, I could ignore Tyson's weaknesses that you have addressed and not bring others to your attention like I have and we could just babble on about whose Dad is bigger like schoolboys.

I am willing to admit that Ali would have a great chance against Tyson best to best, but I favor Tyson because he showed much less weakness at his best, close to the perfect, most invincible fighter ever for a 5 yr stint.

Tyson had great success against Tucker and Biggs, two fighters who were very talented, bigger/stronger than Ali, and used an Ali type style on Tyson. Biggs had better credentials than a young Ali at the time he turned pro, undefeated, the first ever superheavy gold medalist, defeating Lennox Lewis in the Olympics which delayed Lewis pro debut by 4 yrs. Tucker was 29 and undefeated at his peak, Biggs 27. Wide decision against Tucker, brutal KO of Biggs come midrounds after some initial frustration because of the footwork and quickness of Biggs. Poor Biggs was never the same.

Of course Ali is better than the above, this is not a one way street with me. Ali never faced a quick, pressure type big slugger until he's past what most consider his best, and that would be the 29 yr old Ali against Frazier. He lost that bout, most everyone agrees now, but the main point is he had no experience to that type of fighter until he was past his best.

We do know that a young, quick, prospect, Banks, put him down early with a left hook. Not the same fighter as a young Tyson, but a point a reference that Ali was getting hit and hurt early in his career as a much older, smaller, slower Henry Cooper showed just before the Liston bouts with Henry's fabled left hook. Any relation to your left hook, BTW?

Ali learned something from those bouts, isn't that what it's all about? That's why I don't wish to match the Ali of Cooper against the Tyson of Spinks. Not fair. I broke down the bests of their careers pretty comprehensively, so here's how the fight goes.

Ali gave up the 1st 2 rounds against Folley, showing great respect for the counterpunching ability, preferring to circle and feint. Two rds minimum in the bank for Tyson whom Ali would know to be much quicker, more powerful and dangerous counterpuncher.

The fight starts in the 3-4rds with some cat and mouse types of engagements as Ali goes to the 2nd stage of the feeling out process and Tyson is cutting off the ring and getting Ali's timing down for his onslaught. I figure both fighters will have their moments at this phase, but the only fighter who might get hurt here is Ali, probably from a body shot.

OK, from the 6th Ali backs out again, circling, firing off the jab, trying to figure out how to crack this nut. Again, mixed success as Tyson mounts enough offense to keep Ali in reverse, which Ali hated unless it was his choice. So the fighter in Ali comes out in the 8-9 rds because he's no Tucker looking to survive and he's been quicker than Biggs to this point, yet all that high energy footwork has fatiqued him. The real fight breaks out and Ali is countered and dropped.

Either he gets up and runs to the losing decision or Tyson finishes him off. I think the latter, because again, he's Ali and came to fight back then, not lose decisions. It's one thing to get up from a single shot, and another to have to go on against the most dynamic combination slugger since Dempsey.

Here's where it gets interesting though. If Ali cuts Tyson during the fight, it depends on the severity of the cut, Tyson might not react well and might give Ali his edge. We saw that against Holyfield, but that is past Tyson's best and without his original team. I tend to think with his team intact, he plows through it, Jacobs close by with Rooney in the corner. If he has King's toadies in his corner with iced condoms instead of endswell, well, Henry, t'aint a fair fight, but neither is the world, know what I mean?

That's why I matched them at their virile best and did the career breakdown of that time period.

BTW, any talk of Ali brings out biases, Ali his NOI associations, Tyson his criminal background. Those mean nothing in a fairly judged boxing match, at least not to me, but, again, boxing and life is not always fair. It's been documented that NOI used to threaten some of Ali opponents and was a factor in the Liston fights.

[The Iron Man]

Tyson was asked once about Sugar Ray Robinson being the Greatest Pound for Pound Boxer Ever. He said, Robinson was Great, BUT the Greatest is left for only One Man, and that was Muhammad Ali.

Most people were beaten before the opening bell rung when they boxed Tyson and Liston, Ali wouldn't be. He would be too smart for both of them. Remember the most aggressive Heavyweight Ever was Joe Frazier and he couldn't stop Ali in over 40 rounds.

Here's Nat Fleischer's All-Time List of the Most Aggressive Boxers Ever:

1. Henry Armstrong
2. Joe Frazier
3. Harry Greb

Well i find that quote hard to believe unless u can find it, Tyson would have probably Chosen Joe Louis or Ray Robinson. As for Frazier being more Agressive than tyson dnt make me laugh, tyson was the most aggressive heavyweight possibly ever. Many people fought tyson believing they could win so dnt try that card, to name a few, Holmes,Ruddock, Thomas. Frazier Knocked ali down and it would have been ended by TKO but fraizer couldnt finish now put tyson in there, one of the best finishers ever and it could of been over. Cooper knocked ali down, im confident Tyson would aswell. I stand by tyson winning the second and Ali winning the Re-match.

[Brassangel]

The whole, if you aren't afraid of Tyson you beat him line is complete BS. You still have to face his punches.

LRR made a beautiful post. Though lengthy, I think it should be read thoroughly.

[hhascup]

Well i find that quote hard to believe unless u can find it, Tyson would have probably Chosen Joe Louis or Ray Robinson. As for Frazier being more Agressive than tyson dnt make me laugh, tyson was the most aggressive heavyweight possibly ever. Many people fought tyson believing they could win so dnt try that card, to name a few, Holmes,Ruddock, Thomas. Frazier Knocked ali down and it would have been ended by TKO but fraizer couldnt finish now put tyson in there, one of the best finishers ever and it could of been over. Cooper knocked ali down, im confident Tyson would aswell. I stand by tyson winning the second and Ali winning the Re-match.

I showed the tape a few months ago at the New Jersey Boxing Hall of Fame meeting, where Tyson said that. Tonight I have another meeting and will show some more boxing films.

Most of Tyson's bouts ended in the first 3 rounds (24/7/5), after that he slowed down a lot. Tyson was Aggressive in those early rounds, BUT Frazier was Aggressive throughout the bout, no matter what round it was.

Tyson only stopped 1 guy after the 7th round, and only 5 total after the 5th round. In his bout with Jesse Ferguson, Ferguson, while down in 5th, was disqualified for excessive holding. However the official result given by the New York State Athletic Commission is a TKO.

I said it many times, I would have loved to see Dempsey, Frazier, Tyson and Marciano box a round ribbon. I think they would be the most exciting matches ever.