Top 10 Heavies from best to worst

[-CANE-]

I agree, as I was just being nice. Tyson did fight the better opponents then most, BUT not all.

Here's some of the top Heavyweight Champions with the amount of top 10 boxers they fought and the average record of each Opponent.

Boxer- # Contenders ?Total Bouts - Average Opponents record

Ali ?------ 38/49 in 61 bouts ?---------- 33.2 ?5.2 ?1.2
Louis-------43/54 in 71 bouts--------------38.1 ?10.2 ?2.6
Holyfield?-31/37 in 52 bouts-------------28.9 ?3.9 ?0.5 (Note: I have to up-date his last 2 opponents in this category)
Tyson------33/36 in 58 bouts--------------22.3 - 3.5 - 0.3
Lewis------23.26 in 44 bouts--------------25.1 ?5.2 ?0.5
Holmes----31/35 in 75 bouts--------------19.85 ?5.1 ?0.67
Foreman---23/27 in 81 bouts--------------20.78 ?7.54 ?1.0
Patterson---19/26 in 64 bouts-------------28.84 ?8.578 ?1.9
Liston------18/22 in 54 bouts--------------22.2 ?8.15 ?1.8
Marciano-?3/16 in 49 bouts-------------29.7 ?10.2 ?1.8

Note: Ali fought 38 different Top 10 contenders a total of 49 times, Louis fought 43 different Top 10 contenders a total of 54 times. I hope you understand that.

I also have most of these boxers like Ali, Louis & Rocky on the Top 10 contenders when they fought them.

Ali was 33/38 in 61 bouts
Louis was 31/34 in 71 bouts
Marciano 11/11 in 49 bouts

That would be good to see as well, who was in the top10 when they fought them. Also I'm sure you have a list of how many opponents they met were champions at one time or another, either ex,current or future that would be really good if you could provide that.

[LondonRingRules]

Interesting BUT I have to disagree. Ali fought the much better opponents at the time they each fought them.

If you match up Ali's best against Tyson's best Ali's would come out on top. Try matching these guys and see for yourself.

1. Foreman 40-0-0 vs. Holmes 48-2-0
.

** Henry, I think you are talking past my point. I already put Ali ahead of Tyson in all time rankings.

You objected to my claim that Tyson would beat Ali at their bests and then provided your considered list of each opponents. Lot of work went into your list, very commendable and worthwhile but beside the point of what would happen if they met in the ring and completely out of context to the way their careers actually progressed.

Since they have to go head to head in a real match, and since they were both turning pro at the same age, that's what I did, a head to head match up with their careers. Ali starts off ahead as the Olympic gold medalist, but Tyson quickly supercedes him by a large margin both in competition and spectacle before the wheels start to fall off their wagons, forcing their layoffs.

Ali made his chops in his return, that is when he faces his strongest and most prime competition. But using numbers to define Ali won't work for this cowboy. I've seen most of his matches, and never has a fighter had more high profile matches with more controversial results that additionally favors him. Still, his first 3 matches into his comeback culminating in his first defeat ever against Frazier are compelling. His 1972 year was outstanding. To comeback against a Foreman is legend. The Thrilla a classic of 2 fading greats.

However, I would advise Ali and his handlers not to fight a peak Mike Tyson after Ali's layoff. That is not a fair fight since Ali didn't even want to rematch against Foreman. Not disimilar to matching 96-97 Tyson against Lewis or Foreman. Team Tyson didn't want those bouts for good reason and not fair to match that Tyson against a 26 yr old Ali at his peak.

Ali deserves to be matched when he was at his peak, the Terrell thru Folley fights, against 20-21 yr oldTyson at his peak, Thomas thru Spinks. Thus the head to head match up of their careers that I posted. Tyson is showing much more strength and less weakness at their best. That's my point.

[-CANE-]

** Henry, I think you are talking past my point. I already put Ali ahead of Tyson in all time rankings.

You objected to my claim that Tyson would beat Ali at their bests and then provided your considered list of each opponents. Lot of work went into your list, very commendable and worthwhile but beside the point of what would happen if they met in the ring and completely out of context to the way their careers actually progressed.

Since they have to go head to head in a real match, and since they were both turning pro at the same age, that's what I did, a head to head match up with their careers. Ali starts off ahead as the Olympic gold medalist, but Tyson quickly supercedes him by a large margin both in competition and spectacle before the wheels start to fall off their wagons, forcing their layoffs.

Ali made his chops in his return, that is when he faces his strongest and most prime competition. But using numbers to define Ali won't work for this cowboy. I've seen most of his matches, and never has a fighter had more high profile matches with more controversial results that additionally favors him. Still, his first 3 matches into his comeback culminating in his first defeat ever against Frazier are compelling. His 1972 year was outstanding. To comeback against a Foreman is legend. The Thrilla a classic of 2 fading greats.

However, I would advise Ali and his handlers not to fight a peak Mike Tyson after Ali's layoff. That is not a fair fight since Ali didn't even want to rematch against Foreman. Not disimilar to matching 96-97 Tyson against Lewis or Foreman. Team Tyson didn't want those bouts for good reason and not fair to match that Tyson against a 26 yr old Ali at his peak.

Ali deserves to be matched when he was at his peak, the Terrell thru Folley fights, against 20-21 yr oldTyson at his peak, Thomas thru Spinks. Thus the head to head match up of their careers that I posted. Tyson is showing much more strength and less weakness at their best. That's my point.

Ali in his prime, around the time he fought Williams vs Tyson in his prime, about when he fought Spinks would be a great fight while it lasted. As good as Tyson was then, Ali was simply too fast for him and would have taken Mike out somewhere after 10 rounds. It would have been interesting to see if it did happen how Tyson would have reacted, especially if he was taking a beating. Would he have reacted how he did against Douglas,Lewis and Holyfield or would we have seen a true warrior come out in the later rounds, still throwing combos, still trying to slip the punches and giving it his all, and whenever Ali ****s him with 4-5 punch combos would he have retaliated and gave as much back. I don't know the answer to this and neither does anyone else, but my guess is he reacts how he did later in his career in the defeats mentioned above. IMO he always lacked something upstairs in the mental confidence department unlike Holyfield and Lewis and Ali and Frazier who would seem to die trying.

[The Iron Man]

Tbh i could see tyson winning this fight in their primes. But the re-match would result in a Ali win. Tyson was a pressure fighter which was needed to beat ali. Tyson in his prime was an expert at evading jabs so it would be difficult for Ali to hit him

[hhascup]

Tyson was one of the BEST 4 round boxers ever, that's why he had 23 first round knockouts. BUT if you took him into the later rounds, he wasn't the same fighter.

Ali would have used his speed in the early rounds to keep Tyson away from him, then he would have opened up and stopped Tyson somewhere after the 10th round. The only chance Tyson would of had was to go for an Early KO, and Ali had one of the BEST Chins ever.

[Brassangel]

The keys to beating Ali:

-must be able to slip or parry/block the jab and strike at his right side quickly
-must be either explosive, or have a good jab of one's own
-must throw in quick bursts, as he can't dodge and throw at the same time
-don't allow him to establish a jab rhythm

Mike Tyson had all of these. It would not matter what kind of heart he had. The prime Mike Tyson wouldn't lose it just because he was being taunted by Ali. Cooper, Frazier, Norton, and to some extent, Foreman, all had success landing on Ali, and they didn't move very quickly. In fact, 3 of the 4 gave Ali the first few rounds of each fight, allowing him to set the pace. Tyson was exactly the opposite. He blew a lot of people's plans out of the water by literally running towards his opponent, thus negating side-to-side movement. If you watch, he moved in a lot quicker than Ali danced out. Furthermore, Tyson delivered quick combinations from multiple angles, something Ali didn't face against the fighters listed. They often telegraphed punches, throwing one at a time, which Ali could brace for or lean away from. If you watch the way Ali covers up when pressure, there's a nice little crease right up the center where, if someone is capable of throwing a good uppercut, might find the sweet spot. An uppercut is a lot harder to brace for than a hook, as it snaps the head backwards. Mike threw pretty good uppercuts, I hear.

I don't know...I think that early versions of each fighter may favor Mike. In the second stages of their career(s), I'd give it to Ali.

[-CANE-]

Tyson was one of the BEST 4 round boxers ever, that's why he had 23 first round knockouts. BUT if you took him into the later rounds, he wasn't the same fighter.

Ali would have used his speed in the early rounds to keep Tyson away from him, then he would have opened up and stopped Tyson somewhere after the 10th round. The only chance Tyson would of had was to go for an Early KO, and Ali had one of the BEST Chins ever.

Pretty much how I see this fight and a fight between PRIME Tyson and Lewis.

Henry any chance of seeing some more stats. I'd be interested in seeing how many fights the champions had against ex,current and future champions and their records against them. Also I'd like to see how many top10,5 and 3 contenders they fought while they were champ. If you have these stats I'd be grateful if you could post them.

[hhascup]

The keys to beating Ali:

-must be able to slip or parry/block the jab and strike at his right side quickly
-must be either explosive, or have a good jab of one's own
-must throw in quick bursts, as he can't dodge and throw at the same time
-don't allow him to establish a jab rhythm

Mike Tyson had all of these. It would not matter what kind of heart he had. The prime Mike Tyson wouldn't lose it just because he was being taunted by Ali. Cooper, Frazier, Norton, and to some extent, Foreman, all had success landing on Ali, and they didn't move very quickly. In fact, 3 of the 4 gave Ali the first few rounds of each fight, allowing him to set the pace. Tyson was exactly the opposite. He blew a lot of people's plans out of the water by literally running towards his opponent, thus negating side-to-side movement. If you watch, he moved in a lot quicker than Ali danced out. Furthermore, Tyson delivered quick combinations from multiple angles, something Ali didn't face against the fighters listed. They often telegraphed punches, throwing one at a time, which Ali could brace for or lean away from. If you watch the way Ali covers up when pressure, there's a nice little crease right up the center where, if someone is capable of throwing a good uppercut, might find the sweet spot. An uppercut is a lot harder to brace for than a hook, as it snaps the head backwards. Mike threw pretty good uppercuts, I hear.

I don't know...I think that early versions of each fighter may favor Mike. In the second stages of their career(s), I'd give it to Ali.

Hurricane, I will get you the stats later on.

Tyson had trouble catching up with Tillis, Green, Smith, Tucker, Ruddock & Douglas. Ali was a LOT BETTER then any of those, so I don't see much of a problem for him keeping away from Tyson.

In the bout with Tillis, 2 Judges scored the bout 6-4, so it was pretty close.

[Brassangel]

It was close, and Tyson was also very green at the time.

Ruddock and Douglas were both fighters who caught Tyson at a very opportune time in his career; he was bored, depressed, and lazy.

Tyson landed cleanly on Green throughout the fight, many shots even went towards the body early on. Again, he was still just a kid.

Ali's chin was great, but there's also some myth to the monster. If you observe the instances where he is caught cleanly on the chin (ie: Cooper, Frazier, Norton, for example), he was dizzied to the point of needing smelling salts, he was out on his feet against the second (and knocked down in the 15th round), and has his jaw broken against the third. I believe that he was very adept at maintaining balance, and recovering quickly; moreso than simply having a good chin. Even when Foreman managed to catch him on the chin, which didn't happen often, Ali covers up desparately and was dreaming on his feet. This should be a thread all on it's own: Ali's True Chin.

It was great, and your posts are wise and accurate, hhascup, I'm just trying to clarify what's often accepted as opposed to what's absolute.

[hhascup]

It was close, and Tyson was also very green at the time.

Ruddock and Douglas were both fighters who caught Tyson at a very opportune time in his career; he was bored, depressed, and lazy.

Tyson landed cleanly on Green throughout the fight, many shots even went towards the body early on. Again, he was still just a kid.

Ali's chin was great, but there's also some myth to the monster. If you observe the instances where he is caught cleanly on the chin (ie: Cooper, Frazier, Norton, for example), he was dizzied to the point of needing smelling salts, he was out on his feet against the second (and knocked down in the 15th round), and has his jaw broken against the third. I believe that he was very adept at maintaining balance, and recovering quickly; moreso than simply having a good chin. Even when Foreman managed to catch him on the chin, which didn't happen often, Ali covers up desparately and was dreaming on his feet. This should be a thread all on it's own: Ali's True Chin.

It was great, and your posts are wise and accurate, hhascup, I'm just trying to clarify what's often accepted as opposed to what's absolute.

Thanks!

In the Cooper bout, Ali was also very young (21) BUT he still got up and won in the next round.

In the Frazier bout, Smoking Joe landed one of the Greatest Left Hooks ever, and not only did Ali get up, BUT if you watch the remaining minutes of the round, Ali actually won the rest of round #15.

Norton broke his jaw early in the bout and Ai didn't give up, he went on even in a lot of pain, now that's Heart.