Originally posted by HOUDINI563
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One upside is you won't appear so daft.
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Maybe actually watch some Boxing before commenting on the subject?
One upside is you won't appear so daft. -
Rusty us our neighbor boxing ******. One suggestion is to judge a fighter based upon what they did and their ability not the country they were born or the color of their skin. If Fury impresses you words can’t express how lost you are.Comment
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You get quite pedantic with your constant appeal to authority and attempt to elevate yourself. People can put anyone they want on their list... Fvk off. Your not the only well educated person on the forum and there are people here who really know about the sport inside and out... they do not generally need to make such biatchy little comments about how other consensus makes a better list. newsflash, boxing, as a sport coming if age, is not even that old, so even the most perfect pundits are dealing with limited historical context.Originally posted by HOUDINI563 View Post
You and Queenie should just get a room.Comment
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My List and train fare will get you on the train!
My list changes its partially based on boxing guys who were in what I consider the best stretch...guys who started very young around the time of Dempsey, even some before, for Johnson, who were still with it until around the time of Tyson. Because these guys saw, many of the great fighters, and saw them training I value their opinions.
A couple of things: Jeffries was known to be very good, but who knows now? its a tough call. And Tunney is a real hard case: he could legitimately go on two lists... light heavy or heavy but I do feel he belongs here.
The first five are numerical, the next five in no particular order:
1 and 2 are interchangeable: Dempsey & Louis. Both men developed method, theory and application for making heavyweights punch much harder. The men who saw these guys fight usually put Dempsey and then Louis, but its close and many think that when Black Burn trained Louis he broke the mold.
3. 4. Tunney & Jack Johnson Interchangeable. johnson took the old style, the footwork, the ability to parry, counter, set traps, slip punches, and was so educated in these skills that he would be a marvel at any time. because of gloves, punches were not emphasized the way they would become later which brings us to Gene Tunney.
I believe that when Tunney fought Dempsey it was a watershed moment. Tunney had the skill sets of the old, trained through Corbett who fought in the style of a bare knuckle fighter. Corbett did not fight any sanctioned matches bare knuckle but had the skill sets...skills employed by Johnson as well, and Corbett taught them to Tunney. Tunney was so skilled in these methods that he beat Dempsey. His counter punching, footwork, chin and resolve made Dempsey better as well. Johnson and Tunney were the last two men to have the degree of knowledge to employ the pre classical style of boxing based on fencing. both men could parry, set traps, angle the body, employ untelegraphed leads, etc...Corbett also was very skilled in these ways but not on the same level imo.
5. Ali was an athletic marvel. He had all the elements to be the best and used them to make himself larger than life. Ali fought great competition and even giving away prime years, fought at the top of one of the most competative divisions when the heavyweights were at their best.
6. When people talk about "big" and "reach" they are usually talking about weight. Well... When Night Train was formed God asked the angels to create the physique and mindset for the perfect fighting man...He said "No no no I do not want a sluggard giant! i want a man of the perfect size where gravity will work for his centre, where his reach will extend to the heights of heaven the depths of hell, where the weight is spare and in his bones and where he will never smile!
Night Train, Sonny's nickname... along with perhaps Ibeuchi was the result of that perfect human architecture. A physique with no wasted weight, big neck, shoulders, thighs, wrists and hands, light feet and a wingspan that could outreach most men. Sonny was a methodical fighter who was the best finisher, of all the greats in my opinion. His jab was a KO punch, and for a big man he had fast feet and also knew how to cut the ring down.
7. Marciano
Before Liston, God decided to play a joke and had told the same Angels: Ok listen, now I want you to make the worse physique for a boxer and I will show the world that he will still rise to the occasion...I want two left feet, no reach, and lets give him a late start. When Rocky went to charlie goldman who knows what Charlie saw... But he saw something. I agree with my friend here Margianno when he says "Rocky was one for the ages." With Marciano what sustained him was a love for fighting, the desire to punish incessantly, and the means to turn disadvantage into advantage. Marciano goes on this list in much the same way some will tell you that despite the consumate skill of Sugar ray Robinson, that if they had to bet the farm there was another guy who they would send...and this guy was ugly where sugar was pretty, short where sugar was tall and handsome...and squat where sugar could dance in the ring...that man would be Hank Armstrong.
Marciano, much like Armstrong was underated in his ring intelligence and a much stronger fighter technically than given credit for. Like Armstrong the Rock was the most relentless of all the champs...He kept coming, and that was that. Marciano went undefeated and really never got any gift decisions. He beat fighters who were in their twilight but still capable... marciano was the type of champ that we don't see much of and while many see him as less gifted in the finer points, that is a misconception...The reality being he fought in a different style that benefitted his attributes.
8. Lennox Lewis fought all commers during his reign. If one looks carefully at whom he beat, before he beat them, he fought against excellent comp and made it look easy. he gets on this list ahead of some because of his stand in his last fight, and because of the competition he fought. He was very talented, but could be cerebral and disconnected at times. The defeat to Rahman was an embarrasment, though Oliver Mccall is one of those guys that had incredible ability but was inconsistent.
9. Larry had the best lateral movement of any champ. great jab, whiskers...did sometimes fight less than steller opposition but showed incredible resolve and talent.
10 Holyfield and Tyson. Evander was so talented in his ability to generate power through combinations and to be relentless. Tyson also showed incredible ability and technical precision in studying the game and how to set his punches up. Both men deserve to be on a long list because of talent and skill. Tyson might not have had the resolve and Holyfield may have gotten to the division late, but both men could fight at their best and could be competative with any champion at any time imo.
Honorable mention Foreman Frazier. I could easily trade these two out in the last five places.
1. Dempsey/Louis
2. " "
3. Jack Johnson/Gene Tunney
4. " "
5. Ali
6. Liston
7. Marciano
8. Lewis
9. Holmes
10. Tyson/Holyfield tie
Honorable mention frazier and ForemanLast edited by billeau2; 02-21-2019, 04:42 PM.Comment
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I bet you know every lyric to every Bon Jovi song. Ever.Originally posted by HOUDINI563 View Post
Tell me, who else could have beaten Klitchko so handidly, or rebounded from a three year layoff to win all but 2 rounds against Wilder?
Can you really name someone from heavyweight history w/ more defensive-boxing skill?Comment
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- -Rusty, see your problem is you need to provide prove that you have Lineal boxing fan credentials, lineal champs and fans being the only ones that count for anything in Lineal World.
Prob being there ain't ever been no org ever to hand out a lineal belt, so you gotta do time atop of Mt Olympus hanging out with the visiting god of Valhalla, and then, boom, everything you say is good.Comment
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Queeny you are a perfect specimen for the saw that Democracy is the rule of the ****** Majority... Brainwashed into believing that if government is not involved with some "org" then there is no credability. So to your way of thinking, the fan is not able to tell who the best fighter is, they need an "org." Tell me is it true you wait to wipe your @33 when the proper org tells you to?Originally posted by QueensburyRules View Post
You come here and rail on about all the corruption, yet you support it by declaring that the lineal is fairy airy because there is no 'org' attached to it. In a word you are a ninkenpoop. You and Houdini play with the same Elmo doll!Comment
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--- Billy Boy, all your accreditation and you can't see there is nary a single lineal org to hand out a lineal belt, yet a blizzard of ABC orgs that most of the public recognizes?
Accreditation is a terrible thing to waste.Comment
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Why do you need an organization? Didn't you ever play king of the hill? Isn't that kind of what a champion is? You rail on about the stuffed shirts, the corrupt groups in boxing, who do you think these groups are? Those "orgs" ya dimwit!!Originally posted by QueensburyRules View Post
When the Babe was hitting home runs that are only to second to the pitcher he might have been, there were some GI's stationed in Britain where the Queen's guard was coming...One of the Guards was brusque with one of the GI's shouting rudely "make way for the queen!" the Gi responded by saying "screw the queen" whereupon the Queen's guard did not hesitate a moment and said "oh yeah? well screw Babe ruth!"
You didn't need an "org" for even merry ole England to know that the Babe was an American institution. Nobody had to tell the Queens Guard to strike at the GI with an insult to the babe.
Nobody needed to know who the heavyweight champ was IF the fans knew. No org needed.Comment
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- -We played King of a slippery 5'x5' raft anchored in the middle of the heaving Gulf Coast surf anchored at a 15' depth.
My only rival was 4 years older and twice as heavy then and now.
Often his weakling younger bro and mine became King when Dave and I would literally throw each other off locked in combat.
So, you're saying anyone could be lineal champ.
Yeah, we live in a culture that gives everyone a medal even if they don't have a chest to pin it...sweet!!!Comment
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