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The Truth Finally Revealed: Wills ducked Dempsey!

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    #31
    Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post
    OK so now you have to stop saying Dempsey ducked Wills, obviously he didn't, Kearns signed. LOL Must have been your guy that got cold feet, must have been your guy who backed out scared.

    I am going to put aside the BS and try and speak straight to you, but my gut feeling is it's not going to matter.

    Kearns never intended to fight anyone in New York with any connection to Tex Rickard. You have to start from that premise before trying to figure out what Kearns was up to, and before you blame Dempsey of anything.

    Wills was connected to New York and Rickard. Kearns was never going to fight him. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH KEARNS BEING SCARED OF WILLS.

    Neither the failed negotiation I posted or the signed agreement you posted meant anything. Kearns set up that ruse because that was the period when the NYSAC was threatening to strip Dempsey's title if he didn't fight Wills.

    The agreement was a stall until the date to strip passed, and until Kearns could find his fight far away from New York, with a fighter disconnected from Rickard. (Shelby/Gibbons).

    Kearns used both Wills and Greb to stall New York and squeeze Rickard out.

    Dempsey never ducked Wills, Wills never ducked Dempsey. Those two men would have fought in an alleyway if the opportunity presented itself. They were both fighters.

    It was the people (with interests) and the (racist) world swirling around them that made it not happen. Notice that the agreement came to nothing anyway.

    Funny thing is, that probably the only promoter who could have promoted that fight was Rickard, and he was scared of it, and Kearns was scared of Rickard.

    Read the articles for the entire 1922 season and it is easy to see just how hard Kearns was trying to run away from NY and Rickard, and it is also easy to see just how controlled Mullins was by Tammany and the NYSAC.

    Everyone, except maybe Dempsey and Wills, was dirty here, but I am starting to believe you really are a 'white fighter' hater and just don't want to see that.
    The highlighted is the crux of the issue. Neither man feared the other. Politics, promoters, managers, venue owners, and of course money prevented this fight from happening when it should have. Each of them respected the other.

    An abbreviated history of events surrounding this fight goes like this:

    On June 11, 1922, Dempsey and Wills put pens to contracts. But the powerful New York Commissioner William Muldoon did not want the fight to take place in New York. To complicate matters further, Muldoon and promoter Tex Rickard clashed over, of all things, ticket prices. Muldoon wanted 40,000 tickets fixed at $2.00 for the “working people.” Rickard refused. In retaliation, Muldoon blocked the Dempsey-Wills fight from taking place in New York, even threatening to halt all heavyweight fights until prices came down. Frustrated, Rickard traveled to several states—even north to Montreal—to find a welcoming venue. None wanted the fight or had the money to host the event. When the contract deadline ran out, Wills sued. From then until 1926, as the legal proceedings dragged on, a potential Dempsey-Wills fight was often in the news as either under consideration, being planned, or “scheduled for next year,” but never became a done deal.

    By March 1925, the New York Commission had reversed its position on sanctioning a Dempsey-Wills match. The Commission now declared Wills as Dempsey’s mandatory challenger and threatened to place Dempsey on the ineligible list if he did not comply. The Associated Press reported on July 17, 1925, that Dempsey appeared before the New York Licensing Commission and formally accepted Wills’ challenge. With Kearns now out of the picture, Dempsey was managing himself. On his own, with a new promoter, Dempsey made a genuine good faith effort to be matched with Wills.

    Midwestern promoter Floyd Fitzsimmons, who had produced Dempsey-Miske fight in 1920, proposed a Dempsey-Wills fight to be held in Michigan City, Indiana. Dempsey was guaranteed $1,000,000 for the fight with $300,000 due upon signing. Dempsey accepted the offer. On September 28, 1925, Wills, Dempsey, the promoter and investors met for the contract ceremony. The event made headlines. Wills received a check for $50,000. Fitzsimmons told Dempsey he would get his check the following day. The next morning, Dempsey accompanied Fitzsimmons to the bank, ready to receive the down payment. Fitzsimmons handed Dempsey a check not for $300,000 but only $25,000. “It’s all I got right now, but there’s plenty more where that came from,” said Fitzsimmons. Still willing to proceed, Dempsey asked for cash instead: “I want to see this in green…and when you give me the other two-seven-five, I’ll give you the contract. Signed.” As the tellers counted out the cash, the issuing bank was called and reported back that the Fitzsimmons account was empty. The check bounced. Fitzsimmons couldn’t even deliver one dime of a down payment. Dempsey walked. Not only had the fight fallen through again, but now Dempsey was no longer licensed to fight in New York.

    On August 6, 1926, the Evening Independent reported that a Chicago matchmaker, Doc Krone, announced that a $300,000 check was waiting for Dempsey in a Chicago bank. On August 22, the Telegraph Herald reported that Wills’ manager Paddy Mullins tried to bluff Dempsey once more into a contract, and then reportedly “failed to come forward with $150,000” saying, “We’ll post the money immediately if Dempsey will sign to fight Wills before September 23.” It was all too late. The public wanted Dempsey back, and he was in the ring with Gene Tunney three weeks later.


    What we do know is that Wills ducked Tunney along with a $250K offer to fight him. Instead he fought Jack Sharkey who punished him. A year later he is knocked out by a relative unknown Italian heavyweight by the name of Uzcundun.

    Another relevant observation was that Dempsey had a black sparring partner by the name of Big Bill Tate. He stood 6'6" and his style was very similar to Wills. In fact, he fought Wills five times in very close contests. Dempsey would have been well-prepared for a fight with Wills who was slightly larger but much slower than Dempsey.

    Comment


      #32
      Conveniently leaves out the finer details of 1926. But at least it admits that the money was there! That's a start.



      I even have a picture of the promoters holding the guarantee check at the bank. On the top is a close up of the check.


      B. E. Clements of the Chicago Coliseum club backs up his injunction secured recently in Denver barring jack Dempsey from meeting Gene Tunney until the champion meets Harry Wills in a Chicago battle with a $300,000 guarantee check posted in Dempsey's favor with the Equitable Trust Co., of Chicago. Photo shewn, left to right: W. A. Nieol, cashier of the Equityable Trust Co., of Chicago; "Doc" Krone, promoter of Pat Carr'a Christmas Fund for Poor Kids, who will benefit from the fight funds; John F. Gordon, fight promoter, and B. E. Clements, president Chicago Coliseum club (shown presenting check to bank cashier).

      Last edited by travestyny; 03-27-2020, 12:18 PM.

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by travestyny View Post
        Conveniently leaves out the finer details of 1926. But at least it admits that the money was there! That's a start.



        I even have a picture of the promoters holding the guarantee check at the bank. On the top is a close up of the check.

        - -Wow, U got U proof outta CrakkerJakks box.

        Hoo knew?

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by QueensburyRules View Post
          - -Wow, U got U proof outta CrakkerJakks box.

          Hoo knew?
          Wow. You're still hurting inside.

          I knew

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by travestyny View Post
            I had to give this it's own special place.


            This is why I give you no respect, you slimy cvnt. Just because you can't handle the truth you go and try to smear me as a racist? What the fvvck have I said that's racist here. You disgusting slimy fvvck.

            Your dumb ass got decapitated here because you're an emotional little bltch. This thread is a fcking embarrassment by a little fanboy that's choking to death on the truth.

            Demspey ducked Wills. You know it and I know it.


            Matter of fact, go point out what I've said here that's racist!

            Until then....fvvck off.



            "Agree with me, or you're a racist." Unbelievable!
            Ok . . . . . .

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post
              Ok . . . . . .
              Your thread title:
              Originally posted by Willie Pep 229
              The Truth Finally Revealed: Wills ducked Dempsey!
              One of your most recent posts:

              Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post
              Wills never ducked Dempsey.

              So either you admit that you were flat out lying with that title, or did my "racist" information teach you the error of your ways?

              What you are doing is irresponsible and dangerous. People can search their browser for this info., click to this page, and read your bullshlt thinking it's the truth. It's mind blowing that someone in the history section who names himself Willie Pep would be not only so careless, but so malicious. It's really ****ed up what you're doing.

              And to then label me a racist because I've backed up everything I've said. Nah. I don't play that. A racist is the most vile disgusting piece of scum there is. Don't ever compare me to pieces of shlt like Rusty Tromboni, who is a certified racist. Go ask him his thoughts on black people and black fighters if you want to take aim at racists, but you're barking up the wrong tree here.


              And how about you ask yourself...are you purposely trying to muck up the legacy of Harry Wills? Why? Are you a racist???

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by ShoulderRoll View Post
                On one hand you have Don Turner and Lou Duva, who I consider average trainers.

                On the other side you have the likes of Gene Tunney and Ray Arcel who would most certainly not consider Marciano the best. And it's hard to accuse them of not having a good enough boxing eye to appreciate the work Charlie Goldman did with Rocky.
                You have a lot of opinions on the subject, actually. Generally speaking Marciano is not considered one of the top heavyweights, but he has his advocates. I think Turner was a fantastic trainer, not so much for Duva.

                I wouldn't accuse any trainer of any such thing. Im going to try to explain this as I tried to explain it to Klompton when he wanted to pull rank with me: The idea that Dempsey was a great fighter is something that a lot of boxing scholars, on the level of Klompton have stated and wrote about. Its not me arguing the point, how could I? I am using the experiences of guys who saw Dempsey and others in action. And...yes they do not all agree, and thats fine, but to attack me, as Klompton did, is poor form.

                Marciano does not have nearly as many who feel that he was a great heavyweight, but some do. And again, thats not me, I never worked with him. I don't think Marciano was one of the best but I do think he had some rare and outstanding qualities that Margiano can speak to in his historical analysis.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by travestyny View Post
                  I had to give this it's own special place.


                  This is why I give you no respect, you slimy cvnt. Just because you can't handle the truth you go and try to smear me as a racist? What the fvvck have I said that's racist here. You disgusting slimy fvvck.

                  Your dumb ass got decapitated here because you're an emotional little bltch. This thread is a fcking embarrassment by a little fanboy that's choking to death on the truth.

                  Demspey ducked Wills. You know it and I know it.


                  Matter of fact, go point out what I've said here that's racist!

                  Until then....fvvck off.



                  "Agree with me, or you're a racist." Unbelievable!
                  Yup. Clearly a racist.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by Rusty Tromboni View Post
                    Yup. Clearly a racist.
                    Says the guy who's been banned for racism and still has a few racist gems around the board. If you need me to point them out, just let me know.

                    Until then, keep crying over the black boxers that made Dempsey shlt his pants

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by QueensburyRules View Post
                      - -Racism is a modern construct that like all words eventually either expands it's definition or morphs into something different.

                      Why Tunney never fought a black fighter I can't say, but there is a famous beach photo of him with a little black boy around 8 yrs old.

                      He accepted Rickard's fight. With Wills, however as the timeline shows, Wills was fading and held out for his last gasp against Dempsey, so that's 2 all time great fights history passed on, 4 if we include Greb in the mix.
                      Jeez QueenB great post! Thats almost two weeks that you have not insulted me and perfectly clear written post...Your starting to scare me! You aren't sick are you?

                      Oh and seriously, there is really no indication that Tunney was a racist. His views about human beings were definitely ahead of his time.

                      Comment

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