Greatest Heavyweights of all time list 1969

[Ben Bolt]

I suspect that if by some twist of fate London had found himself, beer in hand, with Johnson things might have improved.

I think that could be very true - a meeting face to face over a beer or a coffee often overcomes a previous distant-hostile relationship and dispel prejudices.

[The Old LefHook]

If I may use this post to say that my comments in this thread are not meant to disparage Fleischer....and indeed the cameras had a lot to do with why some footage looks insane. Which is why we need voices of boxing people who were around to see the events discussed. Good Post.

Any list of ratings I have ever seen by Fleischer seemed obviously slanted toward the oldtimer view. Let's face it, Nat was an oldtimer, and a self-important one. You have to think pretty highly of yourself to stop a heavyweight championship fight from ringside as a spectator. They have referees for that job, and it was not Fleischer's job to correct the ref, even if Jersey Joe was incompetent. He showed complete incompetence by listening to Fleischer, or even acknowleding him at the apron, rather than going with his own ruling. After all, how did Joe know Fleischer was correct about the time? He was taking the word of a spectator.

[The Old LefHook]

Yes, London was a brilliant writer. And though I know he was a man formed by his time - when I learned about his thoughts before and during and after the Johnson-Jeffries encounter, I couldn't appreciate his writings anymore.

You must not like Corbett either, then. He was very outspoken and racist. Too bad you stopped appreciating London. His views on race are of no importance.

Every man and writer is formed by his times, as you said. London was no pamphleteer a la Wagner, foamily promoting a racist agenda, as far as I know, but he did speak out on this occasion. In the end it does not mattter a whit, any more than Genet being a common criminal and miscreant does. Jack's view of the world was stark and brutal social Darwinism. He did that better than anyone else.

I am satisfied that Johnson gave both Corbett and London a massive whipping as he manhandled Jefferies that day. I do not appreciate Isaac Newton's work less because he was a really unpleasant fellow who made several other great men entirely miserable for many years for petty reasons.

I know what you are saying, though. For years I refused to listen to any of Wagner's music because of his extreme anti semitism. Then I said, what the hell, the guy was twisted, but still great. That music will be around long after Wagner's silly pamphlets are scarce or non-existent in museums. These days, even ***s conduct Wagner with passion.

[Bundana]

If I may use this post to say that my comments in this thread are not meant to disparage Fleischer....and indeed the cameras had a lot to do with why some footage looks insane. Which is why we need voices of boxing people who were around to see the events discussed. Good Post.

True... especially if we go way back, where we have no (or very little/poor) footage of the boxers, we want to learn more about. Then contemporary reports is all we have to work with.

However, it's important to put things in their right perspective! Reporters who wrote in gloving terms about boxers around the turn of the last century, may have felt they were watching the greatest fighters ever. And they may very well have been right - up until that time! But would they have been as impressed with those boxers, if they had seen a Robinson, Louis or Pep?

[LacedUp]

Nat Fleischer founder of the Ring Magazine compiled this list in 1969 only days before the death of Rocky Marciano - Joe Frazier was the universally accepted Heavyweight Champion of the World.

1/. Jack Johnson
2/. James J. Jeffries
3/. Bob Fitzsimmons
4/. Jack Dempsey
5/. James J. Corbett
6/. Joe Louis
7/. Sam Langford
8/. Gene Tunney
9/. Max Schmelling
10/. Rocky Marciano

Fleischer claimed " Anyone in his Top 10 would have had an easy night taking care of Muhammad Ali" - Fleischer claimed "Jack Johnson was the greatest who ever lived"..

what are your opinions?

Up until that time I would have said Joe Louis was regarded as the best ever, followed by Dempsey, Marciano Johnson & Liston.

My list is changing from time to time but goes something like this:

1) Ali
2) Louis
3) Foreman
4) Dempsey
5) Holmes
6) Frazier
7) Holyfield
8) Johnson
9) Marciano
10) Lewis

[McGoorty]

I reckon the ultimate heavyweight champion was Megalodon, it was a gigantic shark the weighed, get this................... 100 TONS.... now that has to be the champ........ this of course is a post not to be taken seriously folks but hey, glad that beast doesn't exist these days.

[McGoorty]

Yeah, Bob Fitzsimmons takes care of Ali easily.

I actually rate Fitz equal to Ali but not head to head, Bob is just way too light to hurt Ali but P4P I have them pretty close.

[McGoorty]

I think I mentioned it before, that surveys have shown people get their favorite athletes when they’re young, and keep holding them in highest regard later on in life.
So Fleischer’s (born 1887) comment on Ali isn’t surprising, nor him placing Louis only 6th.

It also means, a lot of today’s teenage boxing fans will always idolize Wlad.

Well that's a theory but in my case not true, my sport as a lad was that bloodsport full of crowd pleasing excitement, rugby LEAGUE and yes I hold some of the greats from my childhood like Arthur Beetson and Bob Fulton very highly and rightfully so but in recent years we have had even better players, Andrew Johns is clearly the best player I ever saw and Billy Slater is the second best I have ever seen yet I am middle aged. Sometimes you just have to open your eyes to see the truth so maybe Fleisher was pretty realistic,... We can only comment on what he says because unlike us he was there and saw them all for many decades and he isn't the first guy from back then that held the opinion the earlier fighters were superior to those in the 60's and 70's

[McGoorty]

Like

i cannot remember if it was Joe Gans or Battling Nelson.. But a study of their fights was done by "Computer punch stats" compared to modern day champions Floyd Mayweather & Co.. believe it or not, but the old timers won hands down round after round. They also fought for 45rd fights not 12rds like today. They also fought out-doors in 100*+ heat, unlike todays air-conditioned arena's. They also used 4oz gloves, unlike today's 8 & 10oz gloves. No standing 8 count back then, No early stoppages back then. No PHDs back then. No hand-picking your opponents back then. the best fought the best.

I am looking for the like button because I wanna press it to show my appreciation

[Canelo Phresh]

Fitzsimmons takes care of ali easily?Yea sure he does...My guess is you've never seen him actually fight how else would a knowledgable person make that statement!The FACT this guy has Fitszimmons at number 3 truly shows how much garbage Ring magazine spews even back then and Jefferies at number 2 is just as bad..The vid provided will show just how laughable that one really is.......





NO one on that list should be over Ali...NO one!

Thats like some old timey sketch comedy right? If thats real footage, I could whip his ass.