Greatest Heavyweights of all time list 1969

[billeau2]

I think The Ring generally is - and has been - of high quality. Fleischer was a man of his time, and an elderly one when Clay turned into Ali, something he never understood.
And he may be excused for not taking in modern time values. Most of us, when we're getting old, will fail in that department and looking back to the 'good ol days'.

To me, The Ring was at its best during Bert Sugar's reign 1979-84 (I'm an old man, looking back at the good old days ).
And I think Nigel Collins's The Ring was a great reading until he was forced to step back in 2011. (And by now, the mag did dare to regularly publicize reports about how boxing caused damages to fighters' health.)
Present editor is Michael Rosenthal. The Ring is still good, but I did find more interesting stuff in it when Collins was in charge.

All in all, The Ring DID event the ranking-system, and it still aims to set it fair and unbiased.
That's definitely more than you can say about the big four's farcical ratings.

No media publication is able to be particularly contrarian, in depth regarding information, or unbaised. They would have no advertisers and no subscribers. Contrarian points make a magazine unpalatable to the masses, in depth information is boring to the average fan, etc. The internet has changed this situation because print media is constrained by the medium itself. If Ring Magazine had supported Ali, during this time, they would have been going against the establishment, the political mainstream and even possibly been seen as supporting dangerous radical politics. Thats a fact, and it is not constrained to Ring magazine.

I am not saying that some good cannot come out of these publications...I would be quite the hypocrite if I did considering I freelanced regularly. But the progress is in measured, very measured degrees. Want an example? I wrote a cover story for BB about Stephen Seagal, no problem! when I would write about Bujinkan Ninjutsu or Samurai history...no problem! Around the eighties, before Yoga became a darling of the fitness industry and everyone was walking around with big chests and pencil legs, I COULD not get an article published about Yoga cross training methods in anything but one of the second rate rags....because it was simply to radical for the time! The demographic for readers of a publication like Ring, or Black Belt would not pick up an article that challenged certain perceptions at the time.

[billeau2]

It is difficult to understand Fleischer's list when we view old fight-film. But what is forgotton is just how much recording and camera's have improved during the last 100yrs. Back in the days of Corbett, Jeffries & Fitzsimmons, only one camera was used which was sited at the back of the arena. Today we use over 50 camera's spread around ringside, using color, zoom and every other modern technique available. Today's boxers use, better gloves, shoes, ring canvas, training supplements etc... But when we see Jack Johnson on film from 100yrs ago. He looks incredible. Johnson has a physique better than any heavyweight in history. Nat Fleischer who witnessed all the greats right up to his death in 1972 may not be talking as ****** as many think.

If I may use this post to say that my comments in this thread are not meant to disparage Fleischer....and indeed the cameras had a lot to do with why some footage looks insane. Which is why we need voices of boxing people who were around to see the events discussed. Good Post.

[billeau2]

I agree 100% with this - and someone like Fleischer is a perfect example of this "lifelong idiolization".

It's not just his heavyweight rankings, that heavily favour boxers from his youth - it's like that in all 8 original divisions.

Fleischer's contention that his 10 top heavyweights would all easily beat Ali, is typical of oldtimers, who firmly believe that "back in the day" there were REAL fighters - and that, by comparison, present day boxers are crap! You hear that all the time... just look at how Wlad is being described here (by some posters) as being completely worthless; a robot with no skills, who would be butchered by a TRUE great like Joe Louis.

The funny thing is, that during the height of Louis' career, you could probably find oldtimers, who thought he was nothing compared to Corbett, Fitz, Jeffries, etc.

In other words: Who you believe to be the very best, depends strongly on when you first took an interest in boxing. It's simply part of human nature to be more easily impressed as a young man, than later in life.

This post is exactly why I posted on this thread. Lets consider making a distinction: Old time trainers did not have skin in the game in the same way as Fleischer. Many of these men had no reason to exxagerate a claim and were professionals. But alas, we also have guys like manny Stewart, a great trainer but a guy who man thought became a shill for HBO's interests....Fleischer had a magazine to run. This had to have some influence on his views regarding Ali. At this time if he had lauded Ali he would have been going against the entire establishment while having a publication that represented this very same establishment.

To put this in perspective: Jack London was a brilliant man. A writer, a political activist concerned for the working man, a man who wrote a piece before Orwell's 1984 concerned with repression....But London used to write and disparage Jack Johnson, calling him a laughing Ethiopian and other such things....As brilliant and as radical as London was, he could not let go of what was at the time called "white man's burden", the belief that a white champion should be in place as a superior specimen representing the interests of boxing. He was a progresive man and a rascist and perpetuated popular media beliefs held at the time. Fleischer was no jack London! Vis a vis there was no way he was going to support Ali at that time. the onl man who did so publickly in the establishment was Howard Cosell

[juggernaut666]

[QUOTE=billeau2;15931775]First of all I never said either magazine was "more credible."

I am simply citing my experience as a writer because it is relevant to demonstrating how the media works. Black Belt has content with very low level technical information, I will refrain from commenting on the characteristic skill level, people who use Black Belt as a technical source have, because this might insult you or others who may do so...Its not that it is bad, its just very biased information devoid of any real content. Journals like the Asian Journal of Martial Arts are much more geared towards a demographic of skilled practicioners and people with experience in the martial arts.

I have been in the martial arts since 1980, I don't see that as relevant, though being that I have written for most of the martial arts mags I do think that is relevant. I have also published cover storys by the way... so I know the content in Black Belt Magazine.

If you were to research it you would indeed find that dumbing articles down to this level is common practice when a magazine is trying to reach a popular audience. Again, having written everythng from technical pieces, to historical pieces, I know for a fact that the level I write these articles, is far removed from the level I teach to my students and its not just myself in this regard.

our once again resorting to ad hominum attacks, your comments are little more than puffery because you really have not offered any reason, any experience, or any other rejoinder as to why someone with experience (me) is wrong in assessing the relative merits of popular media publications vis a vis combat sports.[/QUOT


I know one thing i was personally invited to several martial artists in their induction into the Martial arts hall of fame hosted by Cynthia Rothrock and they even gave Muhammed Ali a full presentation ,i talked to Frank Dux a large part of the time there ,see while these are claims i can still prove them,you claim you did all these things but they are claims weather they are real or not i would say to a point ,i would say it surley beats anyone claiming to be a "LEGENDARY " boxing trainer who is basically a phantom....

[Anthony342]

First of all I never said either magazine was "more credible."

I am simply citing my experience as a writer because it is relevant to demonstrating how the media works. Black Belt has content with very low level technical information, I will refrain from commenting on the characteristic skill level, people who use Black Belt as a technical source have, because this might insult you or others who may do so...Its not that it is bad, its just very biased information devoid of any real content. Journals like the Asian Journal of Martial Arts are much more geared towards a demographic of skilled practicioners and people with experience in the martial arts.

I have been in the martial arts since 1980, I don't see that as relevant, though being that I have written for most of the martial arts mags I do think that is relevant. I have also published cover storys by the way... so I know the content in Black Belt Magazine.

If you were to research it you would indeed find that dumbing articles down to this level is common practice when a magazine is trying to reach a popular audience. Again, having written everythng from technical pieces, to historical pieces, I know for a fact that the level I write these articles, is far removed from the level I teach to my students and its not just myself in this regard.

our once again resorting to ad hominum attacks, your comments are little more than puffery because you really have not offered any reason, any experience, or any other rejoinder as to why someone with experience (me) is wrong in assessing the relative merits of popular media publications vis a vis combat sports.

I see what you mean. A lot of the most popular TV shows and movies these days are dumbed down for modern American audiences. That's why you usually see better written shows last longer in the UK.

[billeau2]

[QUOTE=juggernaut666;15931922]

First of all I never said either magazine was "more credible."

I am simply citing my experience as a writer because it is relevant to demonstrating how the media works. Black Belt has content with very low level technical information, I will refrain from commenting on the characteristic skill level, people who use Black Belt as a technical source have, because this might insult you or others who may do so...Its not that it is bad, its just very biased information devoid of any real content. Journals like the Asian Journal of Martial Arts are much more geared towards a demographic of skilled practicioners and people with experience in the martial arts.

I have been in the martial arts since 1980, I don't see that as relevant, though being that I have written for most of the martial arts mags I do think that is relevant. I have also published cover storys by the way... so I know the content in Black Belt Magazine.

If you were to research it you would indeed find that dumbing articles down to this level is common practice when a magazine is trying to reach a popular audience. Again, having written everythng from technical pieces, to historical pieces, I know for a fact that the level I write these articles, is far removed from the level I teach to my students and its not just myself in this regard.

our once again resorting to ad hominum attacks, your comments are little more than puffery because you really have not offered any reason, any experience, or any other rejoinder as to why someone with experience (me) is wrong in assessing the relative merits of popular media publications vis a vis combat sports.[/QUOT


I know one thing i was personally invited to several martial artists in their induction into the Martial arts hall of fame hosted by Cynthia Rothrock and they even gave Muhammed Ali a full presentation ,i talked to Frank Dux a large part of the time there ,see while these are claims i can still prove them,you claim you did all these things but they are claims weather they are real or not i would say to a point ,i would say it surley beats anyone claiming to be a "LEGENDARY " boxing trainer who is basically a phantom....

they are not claims I can verify everything I did. I will if necessary. Dux is a contraversal figure, i.e. he has made claims that are considered fraudelent by many (I think you know that), and many of these award dinners are associations of like minded instructors, there is nothing wrong with them, but they are not objective proof of competancy. yes i have connections in some of these groups as well...but frankly I would not claim them because they are not really proof of objective ability in my estimation. I use them for information occasionally and little else. If you want to know more about these issues go to Bullshido, there is a vast amount of discussion about them...I am not critiscizing them only stating facts.

For example, to claim a ___degree black belt from the Southern Asociation of Anthony Go's Chinese Martial Arts is not the same as a Black Belt from a teacher with a reputation, or a koryu certificate in a Feudally based Japanese Art that has been transmitted for over 300 years and is documented as such. Instructors often pay dues to get rank in these organizations and often lack real skills...not always, there are guys who are the real deal as well.

I doubt Ray's claims are fraudelent I think you know that as well, maybe you don't, but hey thats his fight right now, he can handle it as he sees fit. If this whole thing comes down to articles of proof...it can all be submitted to a third party and I have no problem with that. I have also helped certain figures on Bullshido find out information on individuals claiming exceptional rank and privalege, I can document this as well if need be and I know all the tricks that people do to fake rank and privalege. Just something to be aware of.

Heres a little sharing Juggy: Hopefully you can appreciate this and not take it as a negative. When I speak to you about these associations I speak as one who actually jeapordized my relationship to some of my people to get investigators in, through my contacts, to an event in order to verify Ninjutsu claims....I believe in the truth and was/am willing to put my own ass on the line (with some very dangerous people actually) in the service of this truth...

take that for what it is worth, but understand that I know quite well about what Dux claims, about various associations tied to Black Belt Magazine, about people like Cynthia, Al Dascous, Count Dante's group of thug friends (said affectionately actually) etc. Some of them are legit and some of them use these associations as a substitution for legitimate rank, this happens a lot in Judo and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

I will also say this again, and understand I am not saying this to antagonize you...you have already made public threats to me...its just logical that a situation like this between two men is handled correctly. I will invite you once again to be a man and PM me. Not to encourage, or scare you, but when you made those threats, we have issues that should be resolved, perhaps talked through, whatever. I honestly do not know how much on the ball you are so I will make this very clear: What I am suggesting to you IS HOW martial artists handle conflicts. It is nothing personal, it is not a suggestion to arrainge a Gung Sau, but we should talk, we have issues and we need to know where we are both coming from.

[juggernaut666]

[QUOTE=billeau2;15932567]

they are not claims I can verify everything I did. I will if necessary. Dux is a contraversal figure, i.e. he has made claims that are considered fraudelent by many (I think you know that), and many of these award dinners are associations of like minded instructors, there is nothing wrong with them, but they are not objective proof of competancy. yes i have connections in some of these groups as well...but frankly I would not claim them because they are not really proof of objective ability in my estimation. I use them for information occasionally and little else. If you want to know more about these issues go to Bullshido, there is a vast amount of discussion about them...I am not critiscizing them only stating facts.

For example, to claim a ___degree black belt from the Southern Asociation of Anthony Go's Chinese Martial Arts is not the same as a Black Belt from a teacher with a reputation, or a koryu certificate in a Feudally based Japanese Art that has been transmitted for over 300 years and is documented as such. Instructors often pay dues to get rank in these organizations and often lack real skills...not always, there are guys who are the real deal as well.

I doubt Ray's claims are fraudelent I think you know that as well, maybe you don't, but hey thats his fight right now, he can handle it as he sees fit. If this whole thing comes down to articles of proof...it can all be submitted to a third party and I have no problem with that. I have also helped certain figures on Bullshido find out information on individuals claiming exceptional rank and privalege, I can document this as well if need be and I know all the tricks that people do to fake rank and privalege. Just something to be aware of.

Heres a little sharing Juggy: Hopefully you can appreciate this and not take it as a negative. When I speak to you about these associations I speak as one who actually jeapordized my relationship to some of my people to get investigators in, through my contacts, to an event in order to verify Ninjutsu claims....I believe in the truth and was/am willing to put my own ass on the line (with some very dangerous people actually) in the service of this truth...

take that for what it is worth, but understand that I know quite well about what Dux claims, about various associations tied to Black Belt Magazine, about people like Cynthia, Al Dascous, Count Dante's group of thug friends (said affectionately actually) etc. Some of them are legit and some of them use these associations as a substitution for legitimate rank, this happens a lot in Judo and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

I will also say this again, and understand I am not saying this to antagonize you...you have already made public threats to me...its just logical that a situation like this between two men is handled correctly. I will invite you once again to be a man and PM me. Not to encourage, or scare you, but when you made those threats, we have issues that should be resolved, perhaps talked through, whatever. I honestly do not know how much on the ball you are so I will make this very clear: What I am suggesting to you IS HOW martial artists handle conflicts. It is nothing personal, it is not a suggestion to arrainge a Gung Sau, but we should talk, we have issues and we need to know where we are both coming from.

Ray cannot back up anything he has claimed most posters are starting to realise that ,i think you know that as well,and the other thread proves that,other than that there is no confusion here ,if you continue to follow and proceed with the higher than thou attitude well it will be on going then,and you will have a certain nemesis daily as long as you continue to do so,put yourself in check if not well like you said nothing personal up until you start acting like ray jr.Everything else you said with certification is true not so much about dux and ive met people who personaly trained with him how good he really was .

[Ben Bolt]

Jack London was a brilliant man. A writer, a political activist concerned for the working man who wrote a piece before Orwell's 1984 concerned with repression....But London used to write and disparage Jack Johnson, calling him a laughing Ethiopian and other such things...

Yes, London was a brilliant writer. And though I know he was a man formed by his time - when I learned about his thoughts before and during and after the Johnson-Jeffries encounter, I couldn't appreciate his writings anymore.

[billeau2]

Yes, London was a brilliant writer. And though I know he was a man formed by his time - when I learned about his thoughts before and during and after the Johnson-Jeffries encounter, I couldn't appreciate his writings anymore.

Thats a very honest post....I understand how you feel. I would take it more as a cautionary tale...THE MEDIA REALLY DOES EXERT A PULL. Even smart, independent, ethical people can be influenced. In jack London's case, he had met blarney Irishmen, some of who were drunks, some of who where warriors and poets so he could appreciate that when a shop owner had a sign in the window "No Irish need Apply" it was wrong. But he had never really met Black men and he took Johnson's insolence to be a racial threat....****** thing to do for sure.

it happens a lot...Wagner's operas can bring a tear to the eye....So can his loved Fuhrer, albeit for a different, de****able reason...Intellectuals are not above it....Martin Heidegger, perhaps the most brilliant post-kantian thinker supported the ****s, yes he was sorry afterwards but damn!

I suspect that if by some twist of fate London had found himself, beer in hand, with Johnson things might have improved, I'm kind of simple minded that way actually. I believe in the Ancient Greek understanding of ignorance, it is not deliberate but a disease that can be cured with knowledge.

Hard as it is to realize Jack London probably really could not make the connection of what a terrible thing he was doing when he referred to Johnson mocking his race. But I understand your outrage and you are right to hold him to task.

[billeau2]

[QUOTE=juggernaut666;15932756]

Ray cannot back up anything he has claimed most posters are starting to realise that ,i think you know that as well,and the other thread proves that,other than that there is no confusion here ,if you continue to follow and proceed with the higher than thou attitude well it will be on going then,and you will have a certain nemesis daily as long as you continue to do so,put yourself in check if not well like you said nothing personal up until you start acting like ray jr.Everything else you said with certification is true not so much about dux and ive met people who personaly trained with him how good he really was .

Jug I don't change my behavoir because people think it is holy, sorry. Your threats whether regarding being a nemisis or otherwise, well I have given you options....I will act as I please.

I can understand the situation with Dux. I wouldn't judge him on this board in anyway I wouldn't to his face, thats the way I conduct myself. he could indeed be a good teacher. One of my teachers was one of the top students of a contraversal figure (RIP R Duncan) and some of his claims are questioned...its all good as long as we don't pretend and ignore the elephant in the room regarding fantastic claims...and that is an opinion, not a fact, my opinion.