Let's assume Douglas doesn't get up

[Mugwump]

Sigh..Always with the armchair psychology. If Tyson was that mentally weak he wouldn't have been able to almost come back and KO Douglass during a total asskicking.

Hey, those are Tyson's words. Argue with him.

I'm not saying the guy was a coward. And he certainly could take a punch. The problem was when put under severe pressure he froze mentally. He didn't know what to do.

A good example is against Lewis where he's practically rooted to the canvas with Lewis teeing off on him like he's a heavy bag.

He didn't want to go down and he didn't know what to do. So he just stood there and took it.

Against Evander he took the easier way out.

[BKM-2010]

Hey, those are Tyson's words. Argue with him.

I'm not saying the guy was a coward. And he certainly could take a punch. The problem was when put under severe pressure he froze mentally. He didn't know what to do.

A good example is against Lewis where he's practically rooted to the canvas with Lewis teeing off on him like he's a heavy bag.

He didn't want to go down and he didn't know what to do. So he just stood there and took it.

Against Evander he took the easier way out.

Both of those fights were way after. I was talking about pre-prison Tyson(that includes post-Rooney Tyson). Something happened to Tyson's mentality during those years off in prison, we all know he wasn't the same physically anymore but the biggest difference was mental.

There was no way that 95-97 Tyson could go through a fight like Ruddock 2 even if he was in just as good a shape.

I'll give you another example of his mental toughness back then. His first fight against a veteran and good fighter at age 19: James Tillis. After 9 rounds Tyson needed to win the 10th and final round, otherwise the judges would have scored it a draw. Despite losing some of the later rounds of that fight he came in and won the last round and the fight. If he was a weak bully the pressure would have got to him and it would have been a draw. So "he froze mentally" is wrong based on evidence.

[beez721]

Sigh..Always with the armchair psychology. If Tyson was that mentally weak he wouldn't have been able to almost come back and KO Douglass during a total asskicking. Or go toe to toe with Ruddock for almost 20 rounds(at one point taking flush hits and pointing at his chin to take another bomb), or survived Bruno's right cross that had him hurt and staggering and still come back and KO him etc.

He clearly didn't have the mental toughness of a Holyfield which isn't a standard to be held to because almost nobody did. But the notion that Tyson was a mentally weak bully is one of the most exaggerated claims in boxing, atleast when it comes to pre-prison Tyson.

tyson did have alot of heart. he showed that in alot of his fights. not being very strong mentally doesnt mean youre a heartless bully at least not in tysons case

[billeau2]

Tyson's technique had certainly degraded by the time of the Douglas fight. But even at peak fitness and with flawless technique Tyson was ALWAYS susceptible to falling apart.

Put yourself in a trainer's position - here you have a young kid who has all the tools necessary to make it as a top heavyweight. He hits hard, he's fast, he possesses good technique, stamina etc. etc.

But there's one BIG problem - he's mentally fragile and falls apart when bullied (because of deep-seated and possibly untreatable psychological past trauma).

How do you solve the problem? Easy. You turn his biggest weakness into (arguably) his biggest strength by making the kid who's afraid of being bullied APPEAR like the biggest bully ever put on the face of the earth.

The PERCEPTION of "Iron Mike" the "Baddest Man On The Planet" offsets the REALITY of a mentally fragile kid.

After all, who would begin to suspect that the ferocious media characterisation you have created is little more than a clever ruse to divert opposing trainers from encouraging their fighters to attack you where you are at your weakest?

Tyson's carefully-crafted, badder-than-bad persona was a master-stroke of misdirection. But it couldn't last because, as we know, boxing is full of guys who just won't be intimidated. And upon the arrival of such, the chimera would implode.

That is quite true and describes! Most bullies. Funny thing about training women for self protection... This is going to sound horrible but here it goes... You train em like dogs, attack dogs. You always let them win to reinforce the right attitude and skills... The Maxum also applies to boys who have a bit of the bully in them. Tyson was like liston tough on the exterior.... But when challenged he was vulnerable to an aggressor.

[BKM-2010]

tyson did have alot of heart. he showed that in alot of his fights. not being very strong mentally doesnt mean youre a heartless bully at least not in tysons case

You're describing two things that are the same though.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Then evander would have beaten mike in October of 90...


Evander is all wrong for tyson and would beat him at any point in their careers..
90,95,96,2000,02, next month....

[Anthony342]

That is quite true and describes! Most bullies. Funny thing about training women for self protection... This is going to sound horrible but here it goes... You train em like dogs, attack dogs. You always let them win to reinforce the right attitude and skills... The Maxum also applies to boys who have a bit of the bully in them. Tyson was like liston tough on the exterior.... But when challenged he was vulnerable to an aggressor.

Yeah that reminds me of a quote I've often heard that goes that your true self is exposed in the ring and you can't hide who you are out there. I remember Ray Mancini saying this, but a lot of others as well. And that interior was eventually exposed with Tyson as well.

[Mugwump]

Both of those fights were way after. I was talking about pre-prison Tyson(that includes post-Rooney Tyson). Something happened to Tyson's mentality during those years off in prison, we all know he wasn't the same physically anymore but the biggest difference was mental.

There was no way that 95-97 Tyson could go through a fight like Ruddock 2 even if he was in just as good a shape.

I'll give you another example of his mental toughness back then. His first fight against a veteran and good fighter at age 19: James Tillis. After 9 rounds Tyson needed to win the 10th and final round, otherwise the judges would have scored it a draw. Despite losing some of the later rounds of that fight he came in and won the last round and the fight. If he was a weak bully the pressure would have got to him and it would have been a draw. So "he froze mentally" is wrong based on evidence.

James Tillis was a fractionally above average fighter when he fought Tyson (who wasn't that far from being at his peak). Maybe not even that. He didn't have anything like the kind of ferocity, accuracy or power that Lewis or Holyfield or even Douglas possessed.

He certainly didn't possess the facility to inflict severe HURT on Mike.

And yet EVEN THEN Tyson struggled.

Your own example backs up my argument that nothing happened to Mike in prison - other than letting his skills, reflexes and desire rot into ruin. Tillis caused Tyson considerable discomfort, but, fortunately for Mike, the pressure he inflicted didn't pass the threshold which caused Tyson to shut down mentally.

As Mike says, in his own documentary, in his own words, "I am terrified of being bullied".

"Terrified."

QED.

[BKM-2010]

James Tillis was a fractionally above average fighter when he fought Tyson (who wasn't that far from being at his peak). Maybe not even that. He didn't have anything like the kind of ferocity, accuracy or power that Lewis or Holyfield or even Douglas possessed.

He certainly didn't possess the facility to inflict severe HURT on Mike.

And yet EVEN THEN Tyson struggled.

Your own example backs up my argument that nothing happened to Mike in prison - other than letting his skills, reflexes and desire rot into ruin. Tillis caused Tyson considerable discomfort, but, fortunately for Mike, the pressure he inflicted didn't pass the threshold which caused Tyson to shut down mentally.

As Mike says, in his own documentary, in his own words, "I am terrified of being bullied".

"Terrified."

QED.

You've ignored every other example I provided of Tyson that proved you wrong and now you're making excuses. I like how you point out Tillis' stature as a fighter at the time yet you forget to mention that Tyson was a teenager who hadn't even had 20 fights yet and never fought a world class fighter yet.

Nobody said Tillis was as good as Evander and Lewis, that's a lame straw man. The whole point is about how he showed mental strength which I have proven with countless examples of him pre-prison, and he never showed that again post-prison except one other time against Frans Botha where he was losing on the scorecards and still got the knockout win.

Somehow this is supposed to be a complete coincidence to you. That he showed mental strength pre-prison about 6 times(Tillis, Tucker, Bruno, Douglass, Ruddock 2x) and yet post prison 0 times(Unless you count Botha where he also tried to break his arm out of frustration).

And Tyson's words can be contrued in several ways. You should read what Cus said about fighters with fear btw. Fear does not always mean weak mental strength, some even use it to their advantage.

I know the armchair psychology is fun and it conforms to the popular myths of the sport but I never bought it and neither should you.

[K-DOGG]

And tyson survives a major scare. Does he learn from it and move on to a memorable fight with Holyfield that he wins? Or does he continue down the same path of having those around him make him think he doesn't need to train properly?

I tend to think the latter would happen and tysons first loss would have come to holyfield. I would LIKE to think (seeing as how tyson is my fav fighter) that Tyson learns his lesson, Don King berates him for almost derailing the money train, and tyson returns to form against Holyfield and knocks him out late. It's just very hard for me to see this actually happening.

Thoughts?

While it would have bolstered his historic standing, I/think it also would have cemented his arrogance at the time and his conviction to the idea that he was invincible. He woulad have trained harder for Holyfield, as Evander was perceived as far more of a threat than Douglas; but his attitude, corner, etc. Would not have changed.......and I feel he would have lost.

Even though he beat Bruno and Williams, prior to the Douglas debacle, it was evident that he wasn't the same fighter as he had been under Rooney. A win over Douglas by come-from-behind knockout would have only cemented the idea within his mind that he could ALWAYS pull it out......which would have been the downfall n the Holyfield bout, IMO.....though I will concede Holyfield, at that time, was not the seasoned pro he was by the time he actually faced and defeated Tyson. So, a win for Evander at that time is anything but guaranteed, though, in refrospec, I deem it likely.