Let's assume Douglas doesn't get up

[Bigdaddy_Vh]

And tyson survives a major scare. Does he learn from it and move on to a memorable fight with Holyfield that he wins? Or does he continue down the same path of having those around him make him think he doesn't need to train properly?

I tend to think the latter would happen and tysons first loss would have come to holyfield. I would LIKE to think (seeing as how tyson is my fav fighter) that Tyson learns his lesson, Don King berates him for almost derailing the money train, and tyson returns to form against Holyfield and knocks him out late. It's just very hard for me to see this actually happening.

Thoughts?

[BKM-2010]

Even with all the mess going on back then, Tyson could still get motivated for an opponent as we saw later against Ruddock. He just underestimated people like Douglass, but Holyfield? There was true resentment there as Mike thought HBO loved Evander over him which was part of why he went to Showtime. I'm sure we'd see the same Tyson who fought 12 hard rounds against Ruddock.

As for who would win, this depends on how eager Evander is to slug it out. And he does not have the strength at this time like 96-Evan Fields to push Tyson back and man handle him. I could see it going either way.

[miamike]

Tyson was not the same as he was a few years before. Someone would have beat him, probably a young Lewis, Bowe or Holyfield.

[kiDynamite92]

If he went back to Kevin and trained with him for a few warm up fights then yeah I would say he beats Holyfield. I always believed that Mike on his absolute best night would have beaten every heavyweight that came after him and that includes Lewis, Holyfield, Bowe and the Klitschko's. I don't know if he would have gotten back to his best if he went back to Kevin but if he did he'd beat Evander.

[Ray Corso]

Turning 30 yrs old for Evander and all of his support team gone Tyson had lost his methods and his technique from a low target moving in was changed to stand up boxer. Don King could not take the place of Cus and Gighatti had no clue how to train Cus's style let alone get Tyson to focus on his work.
Cus's style was extremely difficult to produce as a fighter got older. Torres handled it better than any of Cus's fighters because he was an extremely disciplined man.

His healthiest time was with Cus directing the camp and Teddy Atlas handling him with Jimmy Jacobs mentoring. There was a support group their to protect him and keep him moving forward. I was one of those people who Cus called on during Tysons youth boxing era. Teddy and I handled him in the regionals & nationals and he needed to be directed and protected. he was very insecure and it took years for him to gain confidence.

He actually came a long ways from the Brownsville punk that he was as a kid.
I always liked Sunny.

Ray Corso

[billeau2]

If he went back to Kevin and trained with him for a few warm up fights then yeah I would say he beats Holyfield. I always believed that Mike on his absolute best night would have beaten every heavyweight that came after him and that includes Lewis, Holyfield, Bowe and the Klitschko's. I don't know if he would have gotten back to his best if he went back to Kevin but if he did he'd beat Evander.

When Tyson was, as Ray stated, moving properly, managed properly, and focused I dont think Holyfield could have pushed him back on his heels...What won that fight imo was that Holyfield could at times be very coachable....he showed that capacity when he boxed Bowe and won. Holly's team had figured out that as Tyson started to get more stationary, he could be pushed off balance by coming fowards instead of trying to back off....Really genius insight and something Ju Jutsu guys use constantly.

But if Tyson was moving properly I don't think Holly could have done this. The proper version of Tyson uppercuts him and catches him with hooks when Holly pushes, head butts foward.

A lot of people think Holly was just that good. I disgree actually. Holly was elite but Tyson at his best, moving constantly, explosive and ready to work the uppercut, instead of catching a breather would have done the job.

[Ray Corso]

Every trainer knew the way to beat Mike or at least have some success was to stand him up and back him off. Every pressure guy has that weakness, Frazier, Marciano and Dempsey all got into trouble with a guy who could move laterially then step in and push him back.
Bully the bully is an old attage in boxing and holds alot of truth.

I do agree that Tyson at his best gives anyone a great fight.
Only Shavers hit harder in my years of working pads and I worked with a few
big shot guys. Tyson at 17 yrs old hit very hard and was faster than any heavy I ever worked with.
Ray

[beez721]

Even with all the mess going on back then, Tyson could still get motivated for an opponent as we saw later against Ruddock. He just underestimated people like Douglass, but Holyfield? There was true resentment there as Mike thought HBO loved Evander over him which was part of why he went to Showtime. I'm sure we'd see the same Tyson who fought 12 hard rounds against Ruddock.

As for who would win, this depends on how eager Evander is to slug it out. And he does not have the strength at this time like 96-Evan Fields to push Tyson back and man handle him. I could see it going either way.

yea,,,holyfield was able to push tyson back and keep him going backwards giving the impression that he was the stronger guy but I think it was just that tyson lost his great balance and squared up too much making it easy for holy to back him up. I dont think any version of holyfield would have been able to do that to a better balanced young tyson that stayed low and didnt square up. I do however feel that holyfield would have usually beaten tyson as long as he fought smart and didnt try to slug it out with mike like he did with bert cooper and bowe 3. holyfield just seemed much stronger mentally and I think that would have got him by altho tyson obviously would have had that great punchers chance

[Mugwump]

Tyson's technique had certainly degraded by the time of the Douglas fight. But even at peak fitness and with flawless technique Tyson was ALWAYS susceptible to falling apart.

Put yourself in a trainer's position - here you have a young kid who has all the tools necessary to make it as a top heavyweight. He hits hard, he's fast, he possesses good technique, stamina etc. etc.

But there's one BIG problem - he's mentally fragile and falls apart when bullied (because of deep-seated and possibly untreatable psychological past trauma).

How do you solve the problem? Easy. You turn his biggest weakness into (arguably) his biggest strength by making the kid who's afraid of being bullied APPEAR like the biggest bully ever put on the face of the earth.

The PERCEPTION of "Iron Mike" the "Baddest Man On The Planet" offsets the REALITY of a mentally fragile kid.

After all, who would begin to suspect that the ferocious media characterisation you have created is little more than a clever ruse to divert opposing trainers from encouraging their fighters to attack you where you are at your weakest?

Tyson's carefully-crafted, badder-than-bad persona was a master-stroke of misdirection. But it couldn't last because, as we know, boxing is full of guys who just won't be intimidated. And upon the arrival of such, the chimera would implode.

[BKM-2010]

Sigh..Always with the armchair psychology. If Tyson was that mentally weak he wouldn't have been able to almost come back and KO Douglass during a total asskicking. Or go toe to toe with Ruddock for almost 20 rounds(at one point taking flush hits and pointing at his chin to take another bomb), or survived Bruno's right cross that had him hurt and staggering and still come back and KO him etc.

He clearly didn't have the mental toughness of a Holyfield which isn't a standard to be held to because almost nobody did. But the notion that Tyson was a mentally weak bully is one of the most exaggerated claims in boxing, atleast when it comes to pre-prison Tyson.