Tunney v Dempsey 2 - Was Dempsey robbed

[solidman]

This fight has been discussed for close to a century, but it needs revisiting to gain some clarity. Personally i dont think Dempsey was robbed. I think tunney would have gotten up anyway.

[JAB5239]

This fight has been discussed for close to a century, but it needs revisiting to gain some clarity. Personally i dont think Dempsey was robbed. I think tunney would have gotten up anyway.

If he was robbed he did it to himself by not following the refs instructions in which he had lobbied for. I tend to think Tunney would have gotten up as well. But we'll never know. Dempsey should have gone to the neutral corner.

[Willie Pep 229]

If he was robbed he did it to himself by not following the refs instructions in which he had lobbied for. I tend to think Tunney would have gotten up as well. But we'll never know. Dempsey should have gone to the neutral corner.

Dempsey did not fail to move to a neutral corner out of arrogance or even to gain an advantage.

He just plain forgot.

First, had this not included the relatively new neutral corner rule, Dempsey backing into the ropes would have been considered a 'fair distance.' Watch the Johnson-Jeffries KD you will see JJ give the proper distance and still be ready to pounce on Jeffries. Dempsey poistioned himself a fair distance away from Tunney something he didn't do with Willard or Firpo.

Dempsey was actually trying. He didn't embrace being called a dirty fighter the way Greb did.

Second when Dave Barry yells at Dempsey to move you can see Dempsey's sudden awareness that he is doing wrong and he tries to retreat the 'nearest' neutral corner. Barry then yells and points Dempsey to the other side of the ring. Dempsey grabs the rope and tries to pull himself as fast as possible to the furthest neutral corner. It is at this point Dempsey realized he screwed up.

Barry then returned to Tunney and started to count from 'one,' while everyone at ringside heard the time keeper yell "four."

Dave Barry not picking up the count at 'five' is the corruption!

Blaming Dempsey coves up the obvious cheat by Dave Barry.

P.S. Up to that fight Dempsey had only four fights that included the neutral corner rule.

Firpo believe it not had the rule in effect but it was not followed.

Tunney I and then Sharkey didn't need the rule to be enforced. No KD, and a count out, respectively

So Tunney II was the first time it mattered and Dempsey with 60 plus fights had his instinct take over.

I point out again. By pre 'neutral corner' rule standard, Dempsey was giving Tunney the traditional 'fair distance.' See Johnson-Jeffries.

For what it is worth, Dempsey himself said, "I just forgot."

[JAB5239]

Dempsey did not fail to move to a neutral corner out of arrogance or even to gain an advantage.

He just plain forgot.

First, had this not included the relatively new neutral corner rule, Dempsey backing into the ropes would have been considered a 'fair distance.' Watch the Johnson-Jeffries KD you will see JJ give the proper distance and still be ready to pounce on Jeffries. Dempsey poistioned himself a fair distance away from Tunney something he didn't do with Willard or Firpo.

Dempsey was actually trying. He didn't embrace being called a dirty fighter the way Greb did.

Second when Dave Barry yells at Dempsey to move you can see Dempsey's sudden awareness that he is doing wrong and he tries to retreat the 'nearest' neutral corner. Barry then yells and points Dempsey to the other side of the ring. Dempsey grabs the rope and tries to pull himself as fast as possible to the furthest neutral corner. It is at this point Dempsey realized he screwed up.

Barry then returned to Tunney and started to count from 'one,' while everyone at ringside heard the time keeper yell "four."

Dave Barry not picking up the count at 'five' is the corruption!

Blaming Dempsey coves up the obvious cheat by Dave Barry.

P.S. Up to that fight Dempsey had only four fights that included the neutral corner rule.

Firpo believe it not had the rule in effect but it was not followed.

Tunney I and then Sharkey didn't need the rule to be enforced. No KD, and a count out, respectively

So Tunney II was the first time it mattered and Dempsey with 60 plus fights had his instinct take over.

I point out again. By pre 'neutral corner' rule standard, Dempsey was giving Tunney the traditional 'fair distance.' See Johnson-Jeffries.

For what it is worth, Dempsey himself said, "I just forgot."

Whether he forgot or not, it's still his own fault. I'm not taking a dig at him. It could have happened to anybody.

You say Dave Barry was to blame and claim corruption. Do we even know it was the time keepers job to pick up the count and Barry from him back then? If so could it have been a simple mistake because Dempsey didn't immediately go to a neutral corner? I just don't see a case for "corruption " or "cheating".

'There was no 'long count.' The rules were simple, and explicit. Dempsey knew of them, and, indeed, insisted on their use. I was fully cognisant of what was going on. At no time did I lose any of my senses. I merely awaited the referee's count. Any boxer with common sense takes full advantage of the knock-down rules, regardless of what the public or anybody else may think. Had I wanted to, I could have got up at four- or at any other time.'

- Gene Tunney

[Dr Z]

Tunney can be seen looking at the referee and following his count. He says he could have gotten up sooner and I agree. He got up with his balance and used his footwork for the rest of the round. He was stung, but not hurt. This was Dempsey's best filmed combination.

[Willie Pep 229]

Whether he forgot or not, it's still his own fault. I'm not taking a dig at him. It could have happened to anybody.

You say Dave Barry was to blame and claim corruption. Do we even know it was the time keepers job to pick up the count and Barry from him back then? If so could it have been a simple mistake because Dempsey didn't immediately go to a neutral corner? I just don't see a case for "corruption " or "cheating".

'There was no 'long count.' The rules were simple, and explicit. Dempsey knew of them, and, indeed, insisted on their use. I was fully cognisant of what was going on. At no time did I lose any of my senses. I merely awaited the referee's count. Any boxer with common sense takes full advantage of the knock-down rules, regardless of what the public or anybody else may think. Had I wanted to, I could have got up at four- or at any other time.'

- Gene Tunney

I am not going g to read what Tunney had to say. What does that really mean. What can it mean?

We're not discussing whether Tunney could continue. We're talking about the count. Nothing to do with when Tunney was ready or not.

Dempsey always blamed himself.

Enough people back then noticed the discrepancy in Barry's count and the time keepers' count so I suspect we can assume there was some protocol in place.

Second, there was a time keeping yelling out a count. It ia hard to accept your argument that we don't know if there was a rule or not. Why would they bother having the man there, yelling out the count if he had no official purpose. Did he sneak in?

You're quick to believe the neutral corner rule was clear and understood but won't apply that same standard to the time keeper's count. That's somehow is mysterious and vague to you.

[travestyny]

In my opinion, there was a problem with the rule as it was stated.

The referee was to, in the event of a knockdown, look to see that the fighter has moved to a neutral corner and then pick up the count in unison with the timekeeper.

But the rule also states that if the fighter fails to stay in the neutral corner, the timekeeper and ref should pause their count until the fighter returns to the corner.

But what if the fighter doesn't move to the neutral corner until 4 seconds later? Should the count have been paused from 1?


Ultimately, the commission decided yes, the rules were followed and the ref was correct to begin the count at 1, and that's why Dempsey's appeal was denied.

[JAB5239]

I am not going g to read what Tunney had to say. What does that really mean. What can it mean?

We're not discussing whether Tunney could continue. We're talking about the count. Nothing to do with when Tunney was ready or not.

Dempsey always blamed himself.

Enough people back then noticed the discrepancy in Barry's count and the time keepers' count so I suspect we can assume there was some protocol in place.

Second, there was a time keeping yelling out a count. It ia hard to accept your argument that we don't know if there was a rule or not. Why would they bother having the man there, yelling out the count if he had no official purpose. Did he sneak in?

You're quick to believe the neutral corner rule was clear and understood but won't apply that same standard to the time keeper's count. That's somehow is mysterious and vague to you.

The time keepers count doesnt apply to the fighter, only the refs count. Tunney did what he was supposed to. So even if a mistake was made that doesnt fall on Tunney or prove any kind of corruption or cheating.

[Willie Pep 229]

The time keepers count doesnt apply to the fighter, only the refs count. Tunney did what he was supposed to. So even if a mistake was made that doesnt fall on Tunney or prove any kind of corruption or cheating.

I am not talking about Tunney. This has nothing to do with Tunney.

It is about Dempsey and Dave Barry.

And who says that the referee's count takes precedents over the time keepers count?

I happen yo believe it does. But still, Who says it does?

[JAB5239]

I am not talking about Tunney. This has nothing to do with Tunney.

It is about Dempsey and Dave Barry.

And who says that the referee's count takes precedents over the time keepers count?

I happen yo believe it does. But still, Who says it does?

A fighters job is to follow the refs count, that's all I'm saying. It's not his job to figure out what the time keepers is or isn't doing. I whole heartedly believe Tunney would have beaten that count whenever he wanted. You've said it's corruption and a cheat by Barry. I dont see that. Could have been a simple mistake as these rules were not widely used before this fight, I believe. To call it anything else takes away from Tunney's gameness, and this is coming from someone who doesnt relish Tunney's heavyweight career the same as many others.