Why not Holmes over Ali?

[Bronson66]

Hahaha, um okay, I can't make you say it even though that is what you beleive.

Reverse the Ali Vs. Young and Norton fights? Why do that? Ali lost them on fair score cards. Punch stats agree.



And Ali vs Norton 3




Robberies

Thankfully Punch Stats do not, and never have determined who won a fight.

No fights as close as these can ever be legitimately called robberies by any fair minded person.

[JAB5239]

Hahaha, um okay, I can't make you say it even though that is what you beleive.

Reverse the Ali Vs. Young and Norton fights? Why do that? Ali lost them on fair score cards. Punch stats agree.



And Ali vs Norton 3




Robberies

Lol, I notice you didn't address the Holmes-Witherspoon and Williams fights. I love Holmes, but this just goes to show how partisan you are. You've been caught lying in this thread (that's right, you admitted you were wrong) and have had every point decimated yet you continue on this ridiculous crusade. Geez!!

[sleazyfellow]

Thankfully Punch Stats do not, and never have determined who won a fight.

They do now? What do you think Mayweather did when he won even though he wasn't aggressive, he wasn't in control, and just stayed away all night but still won due to percentage thrown and landed?

But to the topic at hand, Ali had special privilege at that point in his career, his name was bigger than anybody else. Joe Louis had this too near his end and the obvious fight against Walcott. Why not Holmes over Ali? Because Holmes became dominant near the end of Alis career. Then went on to defend against competition nowhere near the level of the 60s or 70s. Holmes had Shavers, Norton and Cooney. Ali had Liston, Patterson, Quarry, Chuvalo, Cooper, Frazier, Foreman etc etc. Alot of good contenders and champions in those days.

[Bronson66]

They do now? What do you think Mayweather did when he won even though he wasn't aggressive, he wasn't in control, and just stayed away all night but still won due to percentage thrown and landed?

But to the topic at hand, Ali had special privilege at that point in his career, his name was bigger than anybody else. Joe Louis had this too near his end and the obvious fight against Walcott. Why not Holmes over Ali? Because Holmes became dominant near the end of Alis career. Then went on to defend against competition nowhere near the level of the 60s or 70s. Holmes had Shavers, Norton and Cooney. Ali had Liston, Patterson, Quarry, Chuvalo, Cooper, Frazier, Foreman etc etc. Alot of good contenders and champions in those days.

We are comparing them both in their primes.
Ali beat
Patterson x2
Mildenberger
Folley
Terrell
Cooper x2
Jones
Chuvalo x2
Bonavena
Quarry x2
Frazier x2
Norton x2
Lyle
Listonx2
M Foster
Foreman
Shavers
Young
Ellis
Mathis
Spinks

Holmes beat
Shavers x2
Norton
Cooney
Weaver
Witherspoon
Berbick
Smith
Spinks
Any argument as to who beat the better competition?
Have you seen the complete Walcott v Louis first fight?

[Dr. Z]

Bronson66

We are comparing them both in their primes.
Ali beat
Patterson x2
Mildenberger
Folley
Terrell
Cooper x2
Jones
Chuvalo x2
Bonavena
Quarry x2
Frazier x2
Norton x2
Lyle
Listonx2
M Foster
Foreman
Shavers
Young
Ellis
Mathis
Spinks

Holmes beat
Shavers x2
Norton
Cooney
Weaver
Witherspoon
Berbick
Smith
Spinks
Any argument as to who beat the better competition?
Have you seen the complete Walcott v Louis first fight?

Nice of you to leave out Williams, Ocasio, and Bey.

Ali really lost to Young, and is 1-2 vs Norton. He barely edged Shavers. And Jones!

And he was lucky to receive smelling salts when Cooper clocked him which is illegal in British Boxing. What a lucky dog.

By the way Holmes TKO 10 over Ali who if you watch the films ( you don't ) acted like an @ss the whole fight.

[Bronson66]

Nice of you to leave out Williams, Ocasio, and Bey.

Ali really lost to Young, and is 1-2 vs Norton. He barely edged Shavers. And Jones!

And he was lucky to receive smelling salts when Cooper clocked him which is illegal in British Boxing. What a lucky dog.

By the way Holmes TKO 10 over Ali who if you watch the films ( you don't ) acted like an @ss the whole fight.

I left them out for the same reason I left out Bugner x2,Evangelista,Dunn,Lewis,B Foster and London, they were not major wins.
That should have been obvious.lol
The score cards for the Shavers fight,below.

ref: 9-5 9-6 9-6
That is not "barely edging,".


You stated Jones troubled Ali with his jab,he didn't , Jones spent the fight trying to land his fast right hand.I bought the fight over 30 years ago.
I watched the Ali v Holmes fight on closed circuit at Leicester Square Odeon where, coincidentally one of my Cousins ,a Police Inspector was in charge of crowd control.

Haven't you been beaten up enough on this your thread? You must be punchy by now! LOL
Not a single soul agreed with you, 3 called a liar,another suggested you should get an Olympic Gold Medal for lying ,yet here you are,still peddling the same lying,BS !
It's like you are programmed!

[JAB5239]

Nice of you to leave out Williams, Ocasio, and Bey.

Ali really lost to Young, and is 1-2 vs Norton. He barely edged Shavers. And Jones!

And he was lucky to receive smelling salts when Cooper clocked him which is illegal in British Boxing. What a lucky dog.

By the way Holmes TKO 10 over Ali who if you watch the films ( you don't ) acted like an @ss the whole fight.

Williams wasn't Ring ranked. Beyond and Occasio should be on the list as they were ranked. Doesn't make a difference though. Ali has the best resume in heavyweight history.

[billeau2]

Williams wasn't Ring ranked. Beyond and Occasio should be on the list as they were ranked. Doesn't make a difference though. Ali has the best resume in heavyweight history.

And it really isn't even close. I have Lewis as the second best, but have not really looked carefully lol. I have said it before, the heavyweight division statistically sort of tells us: "There are a lot of big tough guys who can fight" then we get the creme of the crop of these Rodeo cowboys, and other assorted very tough individuals and we get guys like Todd Herring, Randall Cobb. Guys who are exceptional even amongst tough guys perhaps because of head bone density, etc. Cobb may be the biggest marvel in this group due to his incredible ability to take it. Point being: You always get these guys in the division

Then we get guys with some bona fide exceptional abilities. But here is where we hit a wall! While in this first category you probably have guys from every weight class, Most of them will never make it in the other divisions, because there is so much competition from guys who combine these qualities with exceptional skills. heavyweights make up a small amount of human beings to begin with, when we start wittling down to these other things that make a boxer exceptional, we get such a small sample at heavy weight.

So many times in the heavyweight division guys have little to no competition. For Ali to have that much talent to face was a true anomalie. I have found if we look at most heavyweights they are more like in Holmes situation. Perhaps they faced some great fighters in their twilight like Marciano, perhaps they faced a bunch of very skilled workmanlike fighters like Liston did, who was very lucky to have faced Cleveland Williams... Or perhaps the division is just weak like when Patterson became champ at such a young age...

Just my two cents.

[BKM-]

Some people really hate this man who had the name Muhammad Ali. They're so vocal they might almost have you believe Ali was not possibly one of the most beloved sports/iconic figures of all time.

[billeau2]

Some people really hate this man who had the name Muhammad Ali. They're so vocal they might almost have you believe Ali was not possibly one of the most beloved sports/iconic figures of all time.

Part of Ali's charm was his ability to not always be right, but to always be sincere. For a time he talked like a true bigot about how races should be separate, then did an about face... Nobody even blinked. It was Ali, he had learned something that Malcolm X had needed a revelatory experience, during a pilgrimage, to learn lol. Ali meant it, and everyone was ok with that and why shouldn't they have been? It all made perfect sense. By the time Ali uttered that sentence asking why he should kill people n South East Asia people all understood he was sincere.

Ali could be cruel, he could be devilishly clever, but so many other people could be these things as well. What people really hated about Ali? (some still do) was his sincerity. To be sincere one has to believe in themselves... The talking heads did not really believe the war was Just, or not just, only that they had to say certain things on the air... Nor did they believe Ali was dodging anything, I mean the government would have given a great fighter an easy way... But his sincerity? i believe it made them hate him beyond measure.