The U Guys [HWs]

[Willie Pep 229]

A U Guy is a fighter who at some point in his career is (mistakenly) believed by the fans to be "unbeatable."

Of course in each and every case they (the fans) were wrong and the fighter (sooner than later) came to be defeated.

This is not about whether the guy deserved the mistaken praise or whether he was truly an ATG only an attempt to list which fighters were mistakenly perceived in that light, and which fighter weren't.

This is just the lineal HWs - I hope someone with more knowledge will address the other weight classes.

The U Guys (Everyone was certain no mere men could beat them, until they did.)

John L. Sullivan
James J Jeffties
Jack Dempsey
Joe Louis
Sonny Liston
George Foreman
Mike Tyson

The ATGs not on the list and why.

Rocky Marcinao - The Rock isn't on my list because he went into many of his major fights as the betting underdog or at even money. Of course had the fans ever thought him a U Guy it would have been the only time they would have been right. Ironic!

Muhammad Ali - although he was the self proclaimed "Greatest" he went into several fights with many believing he would lose. As with so many other things stolen from him with his three year suspension one might expect had he fought those three years he might just have become a U Guy in the eyes of the fans, at least for a while.

Jack Johnson - regardless of what he might of done or was capable of doing the man was so deeply hated that the populace would never have given him the honor. Hell they actually beat the corn fields of the midwest looking for a White Hope convinced he was beatable. The very existence of the term "White Hope" excludes him from this (perception based) list.

Max Baer - ??????? ( I need help with this one; was there an 18 month period were he was a U Guy? I am not sure.)

Other names I am uncertain about - Frazier; Bowe; -- other guys who could have reached the list later in their careers but had early bust-outs or poor showings early on that made them suspect in the eyes if the fans: Holyfield; Lewis; Joshua.

Please feel free to tear my opinion to shreds.

[GhostofDempsey]

Fury seems to be that guy now. I think most fans and boxing scribes would favor him to beat Joshua, and it doesn’t appear there is anyone on the horizon who will beat him anytime soon.

[joseph5620]

A U Guy is a fighter who at some point in his career is (mistakenly) believed by the fans to be "unbeatable."

Of course in each and every case they (the fans) were wrong and the fighter (sooner than later) came to be defeated.

This is not about whether the guy deserved the mistaken praise or whether he was truly an ATG only an attempt to list which fighters were mistakenly perceived in that light, and which fighter weren't.

This is just the lineal HWs - I hope someone with more knowledge will address the other weight classes.

The U Guys (Everyone was certain no mere men could beat them, until they did.)

John L. Sullivan
James J Jeffties
Jack Dempsey
Joe Louis
Sonny Liston
George Foreman
Mike Tyson

The ATGs not on the list and why.

Rocky Marcinao - The Rock isn't on my list because he went into many of his major fights as the betting underdog or at even money. Of course had the fans ever thought him a U Guy it would have been the only time they would have been right. Ironic!

Muhammad Ali - although he was the self proclaimed "Greatest" he went into several fights with many believing he would lose. As with so many other things stolen from him with his three year suspension one might expect had he fought those three years he might just have become a U Guy in the eyes of the fans, at least for a while.

Jack Johnson - regardless of what he might of done or was capable of doing the man was so deeply hated that the populace would never have given him the honor. Hell they actually beat the corn fields of the midwest looking for a White Hope convinced he was beatable. The very existence of the term "White Hope" excludes him from this (perception based) list.

Max Baer - ??????? ( I need help with this one; was there an 18 month period were he was a U Guy? I am not sure.)

Other names I am uncertain about - Frazier; Bowe; -- other guys who could have reached the list later in their careers but had early bust-outs or poor showings early on that made them suspect in the eyes if the fans: Holyfield; Lewis; Joshua.

Please feel free to tear my opinion to shreds.

That's a solid list and I can't argue with what you posted here. I can't really think of anybody to add to it. Maybe Larry Holmes at his peak.

[Marchegiano]

I was gonna say Holmes before the loss. Good'en Joe.

Gonna start auld old and work my way to now, bold means they qualify so much it's like you made a thread for them.

Onomastos x4 champion of Olympia and wrote the rules, he was boxing.

Glaukos - Ancient version of Marciano. Made fun of and thought lesser of until his right hand flattened all. During his career not so much, during his god-like retirement very much so.

Euthymos - Probably your first hero, like a Dempsey to the 20s. Euthy was so popular his name became part of the word used to describe toughness and grit; euthymachos.

Theaganese - The first bad boy of boxing. He was a heretic, disrespectful, and he whooped Euthymos for his title in boxing then went and won wrestling, pankration, and running. Unbeaten in 1200 trials and 4 sports. He became a god. Not God-like, no nonpareil nor demi here, a god, worshiped in germanium.

Melankomas - Not only thought unbeatable, thought unpointable and unhittable because Mel was never hit even in training even if taken by surprise.

Klietomachos - Like 500 years after Theo Klieto would win the pankration, wrestling, and boxing in one go, going dustless, or, like Mel, unpointed against. He is where no sex before a fight comes from and he was never beaten.

James Figg - We don't have records of many of his fights but we do have record of his mystique, definitely a U-Guy

Broughton - There's a reason why he writes the rules and not all the Figg students come together. Post Figg and prior Slack Broughton is boxing.

Slack - Probably more to do with cheating than skills but the reign of Slack didn't seem to have many who believed it'd end quickly.

Tom Cribb - First man to take dieting seriously, Crib had more gas than folks were used to seeing.

Tom Spring - Not really sure why, he's not bad or anything but not actually special either, still in his era was thought unbeatable.

Jem Belcher - Relative to Slack or Broughton, or some such similar very early champ. Beltcher was very good and had the mystique to seem god like.

Hen Pearce - Beat Jem, Hen was a defense guy and was very very good. He was one of the first solid counter-fighters.

Sayers - Before Heenan

John C Heenan - Got the better of Tom Sayers who was considered his only real challenge at the time.

Jem Mace - When he won the "world" title

Tom King - World title

Corbett? - There was a time when his defense was called genius though I'm not sure it carried into unbeatable territory.

Rex Layne? - He already had a loss but by the time he was set to face Marciano he was a heavy favorite because Ring was riding his nuts and claiming he'd win until he became champion and he'd be the next great champ. Of course he got Rock'd but for a short period, at least by ring, I think he was thought unbeatable.

Cooney? - When I was young my father used to talk to his father about how Cooney was meant to be Marciano 2.0 or some such, if there's truth to that, like he was thought that way widely, then he qualifies, no?

Grant - Marche remembers

Wlad? - Post loss and prior to new losses, the Wlad reign was one of abject domination and no one believed he'd lose anytime soon. Tyson was an upset.

AJ - From his debut to just a few years ago this guy was widely believed to be the return of talent at HW.






James Wharton carried quite a mystique and was undefeated but being a black man there was always a bit of skepticism. Not sure he would be considered a HW, from memory he's a 140 but fought a few HWs, mainly Hammer Lane. - Anecdote- James's colors were orange and Lane's was crimson.

Maybe Molyneaux in the eyes of those who thought he beat Cribb before the rematch.

Daniel The *** Mendoza, like JJ, no one really seemed to think less of his skills so much his race. He was cheated and his school was successful enough to be the basis for modern basics so another kinda.

[QueensburyRules]

- -AJ! In his American debut where BigBaby fell out over multiple drug test failures, had the Brit/American contenders replicating fainting goats as replacement fighters including Deyonce and fat Fury who were both undefeated. Fat Andy was never asked, but after viewing the carnage, he emailed Fast Eddie and the rest history.

[DeeMoney]

When you refer to Louis in this case, are you talking about the sentiment around him pre Schmelling I, or during the Bum-of-the-Month tour?

[billeau2]

This distinction is

1) A matter of perception, at the time, and nothing more.
2) It is always nuanced. Always... Since the inception of boxing there are people who see weakness/ strength as relative to skill sets and opponents and nothing more.

A good example of this is a quick study of Bauer and Tyson. The movie about Braddock beating Bauer did a great job of selling the idea that Bauer was a fierce and deadly puncher. That idea persisted at that time, but real boxing pundits also knew Max was very beatable. With Tyson, it was a similar thing, albiet Tyson had the so called "U" a lot longer. But many trainers thought that when Tyson met a big man who had a decent jab, he would have some real problems... and he did!

On the other hand, sometimes you get a fighter who is very hard to beat, very good, who never has the "U." I present to you, the History Section public... A man with a lilt, who loves his mom, and does not wrestle bulls, on his time off... but enjoys (you ready for this?) a good game of chess... I present Lennnnnnnnnox Leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewis!!!! What Lewis was doing to guys like grant was devistating. Yet he never had the "U" that a guy like sonny did.

[Rockin']

This distinction is

1) A matter of perception, at the time, and nothing more.
2) It is always nuanced. Always... Since the inception of boxing there are people who see weakness/ strength as relative to skill sets and opponents and nothing more.

A good example of this is a quick study of Bauer and Tyson. The movie about Braddock beating Bauer did a great job of selling the idea that Bauer was a fierce and deadly puncher. That idea persisted at that time, but real boxing pundits also knew Max was very beatable. With Tyson, it was a similar thing, albiet Tyson had the so called "U" a lot longer. But many trainers thought that when Tyson met a big man who had a decent jab, he would have some real problems... and he did!

On the other hand, sometimes you get a fighter who is very hard to beat, very good, who never has the "U." I present to you, the History Section public... A man with a lilt, who loves his mom, and does not wrestle bulls, on his time off... but enjoys (you ready for this?) a good game of chess... I present Lennnnnnnnnox Leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewis!!!! What Lewis was doing to guys like grant was devistating. Yet he never had the "U" that a guy like sonny did.

I find the greatest example of selling a fighter by the medias to be Primo Carnera. People of the time bit on that hook, line and sinker.

I'm assuming that this 'U' stands for undefeated.........Rockin'

[travestyny]

This distinction is

1) A matter of perception, at the time, and nothing more.
2) It is always nuanced. Always... Since the inception of boxing there are people who see weakness/ strength as relative to skill sets and opponents and nothing more.

A good example of this is a quick study of Bauer and Tyson. The movie about Braddock beating Bauer did a great job of selling the idea that Bauer was a fierce and deadly puncher. That idea persisted at that time, but real boxing pundits also knew Max was very beatable. With Tyson, it was a similar thing, albiet Tyson had the so called "U" a lot longer. But many trainers thought that when Tyson met a big man who had a decent jab, he would have some real problems... and he did!

On the other hand, sometimes you get a fighter who is very hard to beat, very good, who never has the "U." I present to you, the History Section public... A man with a lilt, who loves his mom, and does not wrestle bulls, on his time off... but enjoys (you ready for this?) a good game of chess... I present Lennnnnnnnnox Leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewis!!!! What Lewis was doing to guys like grant was devistating. Yet he never had the "U" that a guy like sonny did.

Great one! Man....Lennox Lewis was soooo damn good. But none of us (at least none of my immediate family and friends) ever wanted to believe it. I don't know what it was about him. Maybe it's because British Boxers always seemed kinda soft to us. Or he seemed like he had a fake personality. Was he Jamaican? Was he Canadian? He didn't have that American bad ass that Tyson had going for him. He just seemed like a "herb" trying hard to be cool. When he lost to McCall, it was like an "I told you so." When he lost to Rahman, it was like an, "I told you so." Then the dude comes back and makes one of them shlt himself mentally, and the other physically. I remember we were all rooting hard for Vitaly to take him out. I think the short notice switch didn't help Lennox, and he didn't seem to be in the greatest shape. He seemed to be exhausted. But damn he dug deep and hit that dude with everything including the kitchen sink. I could have sworn Vitaly's head popped off after one of those hellacious uppercuts.

Deep down we all knew he was going to beat Tyson's ass, but no one wanted to believe it. I remember on the knockdown, my brother in law began screaming, "He pushed him down!!!" I calmly replied..."But Mike didn't get up."

He just stared blankly at the screen, and in a subdued voice calmly said of Lewis: "I hate you."

[Willie Pep 229]

When you refer to Louis in this case, are you talking about the sentiment around him pre Schmelling I, or during the Bum-of-the-Month tour?

Pre Schmeling period, thus making he Schmeling victory an "upset.'