Nash as the MVP

[The Fix]

I agree, Nash did take his team to the top, and I look at it this way, Shaq is a great player, but utake him away and u still got some what of a team, u got Wade u got Eddy and u got those other guys who can still get W's, the Suns on the other side, well... when Nash was hurt u saw how much it hurt that he wasn't on the floor, they need him to win unlike the heat. Nash ties everything together, he definately deserved it.

are you kidding?

richardson
johnson
amare
marion.... pheonix is stacked, did you see the all star weekend this year? they nearly won every award.

[neils7147933]

what thugs? sure there are some bad apples like artest but i honeslty cant name more than 5-10 "thug" type players

How do you define thug? I'll include rapists and wife batterers with the others who get in fights, assault, and act in other stereotypical-thug manners (drugs, weapons and whatnot), and that'll make my list exceed 5-10 without even taking three minutes to compile the list.

Kobe Bryant

Ron Artest
Bonzi Wells
Rasheed Wallace
Glenn Robinson
Allen Iverson
Paul Pierce
Derrick Coleman
Jason Kidd
Latrell Sprewell
Ricky Davis
Jermaine O'Neal
Stephen Jackson
Michael Olowakandi
Keon Clark
Desmond Mason
Ben Wallace
Damon Stoudamire
Chris Webber
Marcus Fizer
Kurt Thomas
Zach Randolph

AND LET's NOT FORGET

Jayson Williams
Dennis Rodman
Charles Barkley

[Dude]

In my very personal opinion I really don't care what a player does off the court. A good ballgame doesn't get bad because of the characters of its players. I can enjoy a good streetball game with a person who's been in jail for years as much as a good streetball game with a student of the law.

Of course it's another story when lil kids start acting like their idols on national television but that is more like a general society problem. Children should find their idols to imitate in their own family and not on tv or in videogames.

Dennis Rodman might've been on crazy mofo but he was an all time great defender and rebounder. I don't rate him on his hair colour but on his defense against Karl Malone for example.

It's not like everybody who gets famous necessarly is a good guy. A basketball player didn't get famous for being a good guy.

That's where you can seperate fans with love for the sport or fans with love for the sports image. I'd still shoot the ball if it would be the uncoolest thing to do on earth. And I'd still respect MJ as an astonishing player if he'd cheat his wife with a dog. You don't have to respect a person to respect his skills.

Do people stop watching boxing because of G-Man or Mike Tyson? I can't understand how someones is offended by the so called "thugs in the NBA yet posts his complain on a boxing forum where a convicted raptist looks at him on top of every thread he reads. And please don't get me wrong, I respect Mike Tyson, but as a boxer not as person.

[jack_the_rippuh]

I agree, Nash did bring the Suns from out of the ashes, but the year Jason Kidd went to New Jersey he did the same thing and he didn't get MVP. Another thing I would like to point out is that Nash isn't that great of a defender. An MVP is most valuable all around. He's one dimensional and that's offense only.

[neils7147933]

In my very personal opinion I really don't care what a player does off the court. A good ballgame doesn't get bad because of the characters of its players. I can enjoy a good streetball game with a person who's been in jail for years as much as a good streetball game with a student of the law.

Of course it's another story when lil kids start acting like their idols on national television but that is more like a general society problem. Children should find their idols to imitate in their own family and not on tv or in videogames.

Dennis Rodman might've been on crazy mofo but he was an all time great defender and rebounder. I don't rate him on his hair colour but on his defense against Karl Malone for example.

It's not like everybody who gets famous necessarly is a good guy. A basketball player didn't get famous for being a good guy.

That's where you can seperate fans with love for the sport or fans with love for the sports image. I'd still shoot the ball if it would be the uncoolest thing to do on earth. And I'd still respect MJ as an astonishing player if he'd cheat his wife with a dog. You don't have to respect a person to respect his skills.

Do people stop watching boxing because of G-Man or Mike Tyson? I can't understand how someones is offended by the so called "thugs in the NBA yet posts his complain on a boxing forum where a convicted raptist looks at him on top of every thread he reads. And please don't get me wrong, I respect Mike Tyson, but as a boxer not as person.

I follow the NBA, especially in the playoffs.

I wasn't saying I agreed with McKay, only that if he sees the NBA is a bunch of thugs, there are some guys that back that up, since The Fix said he could only think of 5-10.

As long as enteratainers entertain me, I probably won't hold their personal life against them for the most part. That being said, the way a number of celebrities have responded to their allegations (Jayson Williams, Kobe, Michael Jackson) and revelations about people whose image was pretty clean (Marv Albert, Michael Jordan, Bill Cosby, Kirby Puckett, Edge) do influence the way I view that person the next time they're on TV.

[neils7147933]

In my very personal opinion I really don't care what a player does off the court. A good ballgame doesn't get bad because of the characters of its players. I can enjoy a good streetball game with a person who's been in jail for years as much as a good streetball game with a student of the law.

Of course it's another story when lil kids start acting like their idols on national television but that is more like a general society problem. Children should find their idols to imitate in their own family and not on tv or in videogames.

Dennis Rodman might've been on crazy mofo but he was an all time great defender and rebounder. I don't rate him on his hair colour but on his defense against Karl Malone for example.

It's not like everybody who gets famous necessarly is a good guy. A basketball player didn't get famous for being a good guy.

That's where you can seperate fans with love for the sport or fans with love for the sports image. I'd still shoot the ball if it would be the uncoolest thing to do on earth. And I'd still respect MJ as an astonishing player if he'd cheat his wife with a dog. You don't have to respect a person to respect his skills.

Do people stop watching boxing because of G-Man or Mike Tyson? I can't understand how someones is offended by the so called "thugs in the NBA yet posts his complain on a boxing forum where a convicted raptist looks at him on top of every thread he reads. And please don't get me wrong, I respect Mike Tyson, but as a boxer not as person.

also keep in mind that someone could dislike Ron Artest, not because of his inane press conferences and interviews and multiple children out of wedlock, etc. - but because of how he performs on the court - with disrespect to other players and officials, flagrant fouls, etc. - just the same as you might complain that John Ruiz's or Andrew Golota's performance in the ring - with the dirty fouling and roughousing, etc.

I don't hold Tyson's alleged **** against him; I do hold his ear-biting against him, though. I dislike Iverson more for being quite possibly the most selfish player in the game, continuing to hog the ball when he's shooting 3 for 29, rather than his run-ins with the law and his baby's mommas and his rap lyrics...

[The Fix]

Kobe Bryant.... wasnt he aquitted or the case was thrown out?

Ron Artest... ill give you this one but if you were at work and someone threw a beer at you what would you do?
Bonzi Wells.... smoked some weed, who hasnt? its not like it boosts performance
Rasheed Wallace... straightened up in detroit
Glenn Robinson.... he's done some ****** ****
Allen Iverson.... he is an nba role model, works hard/ plays hurt. great sportsmen
Paul Pierce... he was stabbed, i dont think he did anything wrong
Derrick Coleman... waste of talent, not really thuggish
Jason Kidd...... why wasnt he treated like patrick roy?
Latrell Sprewell... choked his coach, hit a guy for puking on his yacht
Ricky Davis.... sometimes he is an ass but what did he do wrong?
Jermaine O'Neal.... someone came into his workplace and threatened his team, imo that he was just protecting himself and those around him. why was that fat pistons fan pretending he was tough on the court?
Stephen Jackson... protecting artest from the group of guys that were mobbing him
Michael Olowakandi... dont know what he did
Keon Clark... dads in jail for murder but this guy occasionally like to smoke a blunt... not a big deal
Desmond Mason.... dumb **** rapist type
Ben Wallace.... other than pushing artest, he done nothing wrong
Damon Stoudamire... proved to everyone his weed smoking days were behind him by taking a drug test
Chris Webber... accepted some money from a booster, i dont know what the big deal is, he and the fab 5 were earning more money for the school anyway. why not get something for your hardwork
Marcus Fizer... some gun charge bull**** right?
Kurt Thomas... has won awards for giving back to the community, its his word against hers as far as the assualt charge against him. his wife might just be a gold digger for all we know
Zach Randolph... poor judgement



Jayson Williams.... not in league when crimes commited
Dennis Rodman.... weird character, played hard. done nothing major
Charles Barkley... funny dude, who has had some legal trouble but has been aquitted of all charges... in "i may be wrong but i doubt it" he explains it all.

imo of the players in your list 5-6 could be considered thugs

[neils7147933]

Kobe Bryant.... wasnt he aquitted or the case was thrown out?

Ron Artest... ill give you this one but if you were at work and someone threw a beer at you what would you do?
Bonzi Wells.... smoked some weed, who hasnt? its not like it boosts performance
Rasheed Wallace... straightened up in detroit
Glenn Robinson.... he's done some ****** ****
Allen Iverson.... he is an nba role model, works hard/ plays hurt. great sportsmen
Paul Pierce... he was stabbed, i dont think he did anything wrong
Derrick Coleman... waste of talent, not really thuggish
Jason Kidd...... why wasnt he treated like patrick roy?
Latrell Sprewell... choked his coach, hit a guy for puking on his yacht
Ricky Davis.... sometimes he is an ass but what did he do wrong?
Jermaine O'Neal.... someone came into his workplace and threatened his team, imo that he was just protecting himself and those around him. why was that fat pistons fan pretending he was tough on the court?
Stephen Jackson... protecting artest from the group of guys that were mobbing him
Michael Olowakandi... dont know what he did
Keon Clark... dads in jail for murder but this guy occasionally like to smoke a blunt... not a big deal
Desmond Mason.... dumb **** rapist type
Ben Wallace.... other than pushing artest, he done nothing wrong
Damon Stoudamire... proved to everyone his weed smoking days were behind him by taking a drug test
Chris Webber... accepted some money from a booster, i dont know what the big deal is, he and the fab 5 were earning more money for the school anyway. why not get something for your hardwork
Marcus Fizer... some gun charge bull**** right?
Kurt Thomas... has won awards for giving back to the community, its his word against hers as far as the assualt charge against him. his wife might just be a gold digger for all we know
Zach Randolph... poor judgement



Jayson Williams.... not in league when crimes commited
Dennis Rodman.... weird character, played hard. done nothing major
Charles Barkley... funny dude, who has had some legal trouble but has been aquitted of all charges... in "i may be wrong but i doubt it" he explains it all.

KOBE - not only was the Katelyn Faber thing exposed, but there were a couple of other alleged victims, including one in Oregon or Washington who was reported about in Sports Illustrated and might have been called to trial had it gone there

BONZI - drug use, domestic abuse in college, hazing teammates in the NBA, racial comments to white opponents

RASHEED - Bonzi's role model in Portland, apparently

GLENN - baby mama drama involving violence & breaking and entering, disorderly conduct & assault at a damn gas pump of all places

ALLEN IVERSON - here's your great sportsman here (and this is post-inciting a riot/Georgetown stuff):


PAUL PIERCE - he got stabbed, likely because he runs around with unscrupulous folks. But I'll give you this one, even though the reason I listed him was his 2 flagrant fouls the other night in the Pacers game, and I was like "What an idiot thug"...

DERRICK COLEMAN - another fine citizen:


JASON KIDD - wife-beater:


LATRELL SPREWELL - lazy, complains about his ridiculous salary - and of course the whole coach choking thing

RICKY DAVIS - does things intentionally detrimental to his team, like shooting at the wrong basket to get a triple-double and refusing to play along Lebron like a professional. Dude probably has a rap sheet too but I didn't look for it.

JERMAINE O'NEAL - Apparently thinks self defense involves running wildly across the floor and throwing a haymaker when a guy a foot smaller than him is looking the other way. Apparently hasn't learned to control his temper either, judging by the Antoine Walker incident the other night...(anyone who is involved in 10+ scuffles per year belongs on this list, too, so I should have included Walker...)

STEPHEN JACKSON - The cops didn't see it your way...

KEON CLARK - lives not too far from me...Did his dad do the murder or was he murdered - I thought he was the one that was killed? Anyway, the word thug could be defined by a snapshot of the housing projects that crime to place at. I think he's got battery & drug charges on his record, too.

DESMOND MASON - Rapist. Hey, shouldn't ANTHONY MASON be on this list, too, then... Doesn't he have some dirt in his past?

BEN WALLACE - go to the scuffle part of my post.

MICHAEL OLOWOKANDI - arrested in Indianapolis for being disorderly and refusing to leave a club either the night before or after a game with the Pacers; the police had to taser him

DAMON STOUDAMIRE - yeah, that one drug test made me change my mind (this is where I would insert a smilie if I did that sort of thing)

CHRIS WEBBER - besides taking money in school, this guy has a drug and violence history too. See: (good column here called David Stern created Thuggery, Inc.)

In 2003, Sacramento Kings player Chris Webber–arrested on various drug and alleged **** charges over the years, but each time, escaping with the skin of his teeth—was indicted for lying to a grand jury about illegal loans he took from a shady booster. He pled guilty to a lesser charge when the key witness died suddenly.

Webber was traded to the Kings in the first place because of frequent off-court arrests while a Washington Wizard. One of those, during a 1998 Maryland traffic stop, involved Webber fleeing police, slapping a police officer, refusing to show his driver’s license, and lacking a license plate. In fact, Webber’s Lincoln Navigator had devices to quickly obscure the license plate and was equipped with secret compartments to hide the drugs that were found therein.

Like all suspects caught red-handed, Webber claimed the drugs were left there by a friend. That excuse didn’t work earlier that year when he was fined $500 when marijuana was found in his carry-on bag at an airport in Puerto Rico. Despite all that, he had the gall to sue Fila for dropping him as an endorser pursuant to a morals clause.

MARCUS FIZER - gun stuff I believe

KURT THOMAS - to Jason Kidd what Stephen is to the Baldwin brothers...

ZACH RANDOLPH - drug stuff

JAYSON WILLIAMS - wants to make a comeback; who knows if this will happen - MASTER P played some preseason for the Hornets

RODMAN - assault on that reporter is one of the things I was remembering

BARKLEY - spitting at fans is a disrespectful "thug" trait

Once again, I'm not saying these guys are all bad - only that if the NBA isn't promoting a "thug image", it's tolerating it...
The way a lot of players act on the court turns people off as well - the salaries, the lack of hard play, the fighting, the disrespect to fans, coaches, and referees...

this isn't a very fun league anymore to be truthful...

[neils7147933]

Here's the entire article which I referenced about C-WEb...

David Stern Created Thuggery, Inc.
November 23, 2004
By Debbie Schlussel

Printer Friendly

Is it any surprise that NBA player Ron Artest beat up fans in the stands?

It shouldn’t be.

Is it any surprise that NBA Chief David Stern gave him only a season suspension for beating up those fans?

It shouldn’t be.

If you’ve been following the National Basketball Association over the last few years, you shouldn’t be surprised that a player beat up innocent (and not so innocent) fans at an NBA game.

The NBA has become Thuggery, Inc.

And Stern is largely to blame. That’s because Stern recruits kids from the killing fields of America to play for his league. And he looks the other way when inbred street behavior manifests itself in these instant-millionaire SOWMBDs (Sons of “Who-My-Baby-Daddy”). Or worse, he encourages it.

When violence or a hint of violence erupts, Stern sees it not as a bad thing, but as just another notch in the NBA urban, hip-hop marketing campaign – a yet higher level of the street cred Stern and the NBA crave to make their sport more hip-hop in a less hip post-Air Jordan NBA.

Indiana Pacers player Ron Artest should have been banned from the game for life. Anytime a player goes into the stands to physically attack fans, that player should be gone forever. Pete Rose is gone from Major League Baseball for a lot less. But David Stern doesn’t have the guts, doesn’t have the morals, decency, or guts to do so.

Consider Stern’s past record of “discipline”:

In 2000, Allen Iverson—the Philadelphia ‘76ers star whose basketball skills helped him get away with a life of violence that included maiming others—made a rap CD, “Non Fiction,” urging the murder of gays and Black women.

Calling Black women “f---[ing] b----es” and tramps, Iverson urged “Everybody stay fly; Get money, kill and f--- b----es.” His lyrics for gays was equally non-imaginative: “Get murdered in the second and first degree; Come to me with ****** tendencies; You be sleeping where the maggots be.” (I’m sure this hoops-Einstein spent all night trying to find a word that rhymes with “******.”)

David Stern’s “discipline”? He got Iverson to “apologize” – sort of. Stern also claimed Iverson agreed to change the lyrics, but USA Today quoted Iverson as saying there would be “no change in the lyrics.” Stern’s October 2000 “Statement on Iverson CD” read like a press release from the Pro-Player Pander Palace.
In 2001, NBA players Allan Houston and Charlie Ward made anti-Semitic comments, a special chutzpah because they played for the New York Knicks, which has a large ***ish clientele.
David Stern’s response: Nothing. Ward apologized and had a brief meeting with a Rabbi. No word on whether he was forced to ingest gefilte fish.

In 2003, Sacramento Kings player Chris Webber–arrested on various drug and alleged **** charges over the years, but each time, escaping with the skin of his teeth—was indicted for lying to a grand jury about illegal loans he took from a shady booster. He pled guilty to a lesser charge when the key witness died suddenly.

Webber was traded to the Kings in the first place because of frequent off-court arrests while a Washington Wizard. One of those, during a 1998 Maryland traffic stop, involved Webber fleeing police, slapping a police officer, refusing to show his driver’s license, and lacking a license plate. In fact, Webber’s Lincoln Navigator had devices to quickly obscure the license plate and was equipped with secret compartments to hide the drugs that were found therein.

Like all suspects caught red-handed, Webber claimed the drugs were left there by a friend. That excuse didn’t work earlier that year when he was fined $500 when marijuana was found in his carry-on bag at an airport in Puerto Rico. Despite all that, he had the gall to sue Fila for dropping him as an endorser pursuant to a morals clause.

David Stern’s actions on any of the above: A big fat capital Zilch.

After all, Chris Webber—who grew up not in the streets, but with two parents and attended Detroit’s fanciest prep-school for the kids of gazillionaires (Detroit Country Day School)—needed to establish his ‘hood-ness.

And wimpy David Stern isn’t about to get in his way.
So, when Ron Artest goes into the stands to fight spectators half his size, David Stern can’t afford to give him the lifetime suspension he deserves for inexcusable violence (regardless of what precipitated it).

Imagine the marketing, the shoes sold, the licensing fees, the sold-out NBA arenas, and the press coverage when Ron Artest enters the basketball court in any market, next season.

Ron Artest, who claims he doesn’t know what the word “integrity” means (he said he needed a dictionary to look up that “big word”), wanted a few months off to promote his new rap CD, a la Allen Iverson. Now, David Stern has not only given him that reward but more publicity than he could have ever hoped for between now and next season.

David Stern is a smart marketer. After looking the other way and condoning violence for years, he isn’t about to forgo the sweet sound of that carefully cultivated cha-ching.

Thuggery sells even better than ***. It’s a slam dunk.

And this season, it’s Artest-ry in motion.

[The Fix]

a lot of the stuff you mentioned about those guys doesnt make them thugs, its just some dirt from their past.

and the stuff you said bout AI happened before he was in the league, other than some parking tickets he has been a role model that other players and people should take note of, this guy has more class then most athletes do in any sport. he plays with nothing but heart and you wont find a tougher player in the league since stockton and barkley retired.