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Counter Arguments To Manny Pacquiao Being an "Eight" Division Champion

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    #1

    Counter Arguments To Manny Pacquiao Being an "Eight" Division Champion

    A lot of Manny Pacquiao fans say he is the GOAT because he is the only eight division champion, I've come up with a few counter arguments for this.

    Counter Argument #1: No he isn't

    When you actually take time and research this, you'll realize Pacquiao isn't an eight division champion at all. There are four major world title belts in boxing today (WBA, WBC, IBF & WBO), Pacquaio has only won these belts in six divisions, he never won either of these belts at 140 or 126.

    Pacquiao fans will say that he won the lineal title in these divisions, but which boxers actually care about the lineal claim? Here's what Deontay Wilder thinks:
    “It’s just ****** to me, this lineal thing,” Wilder told krikya360.com on Saturday night at Barclays Center. “They’re trying to create something new in boxing. When have we ever seen a lineal champion fight 12 rounds for an invisible title? He don’t have nothing. All they say is ‘lineal, lineal.’ What does it really mean, though? It don’t really mean nothing, at the end of the day.”
    Problems with the lineal title include:
    • There is no consistent way to fill the vacancy after the current lineal champion moves up in weight, retires or dies
    • A lot of lineal champion fight weak competition. For example, George Foreman fighting Axel Schulz, Crawford Grimsley and Lou Savarese or Tyson Fury fighting Tom Schwarz, Otto Wallin, Francesco Pianeta and Sefer Seferi. If any of those guys beat Foreman or Fury, the lineal title would've been passed around in an eternal loop of bums.
    • No one agrees on who is actually the real lineal champion. An example is in the 1990s, Cyber Boxing Zone considered Virgil Hill the lineal champion but Ring ****zine controversially recognized Roy Jones Jr. as the lineal champion

    Counter Argument #2: Roy Jones Jr. and James Toney winning belts at middleweight and all the way up to heavyweight is much more impressive

    Roy Jones Jr. and James Toney's move from Middleweight all the way up to Heavyweight covers far more weight than Manny Pacquiao's move from Flyweight to Super Welterweight. Middleweight(160)-Heavyweight(200+) covers 40+ pounds, Flyweight(112)-Super Welterweight(154) covers only 42 lbs and stops at just 42 lbs.

    Counter Argument #3: Manny Pacquiao had very weak competition moving up in weight.
    • Chatchai Sasakul, ended his career 3-3 against champions (Flyweight)
    • Lehlo Ledwaba, won a vacant belt against a non-champion. Never beat a champion in his career (Super Bantamweight)
    • Paper champion David Diaz who won his title from a washed up Erik Morales, never won a belt again (Lightweight)
    • Antonio Margarito WITHOUT the hand wraps. Had six losses and no belt, they were fighting for a vacant one (Super Welterweight)


    The only divisions he gets credit for conquering is when he beat Marquez to win his first belt at Super Featherweight and when he beat Miguel Cotto to win his first belt at Welterweight. Manny never won a belt at 140 or 126 so he’s not actually an eight division champion as we've already established, he’s really a six division champion with wins against weak opponents in four of those six divisions.

    Counter Arguments #4: Oscar De La Hoya is a six division champion, is he a GOAT too?

    If we use the Pacquiao fan logic, then De La Hoya has a real argument for being the GOAT since he and Pacquiao are both six division champions. Yet we rarely see anyone arguing that.
    Last edited by MusaWorld; 08-16-2019, 06:57 PM.
    Tags: None
    #2
    Too much facts and recorded history for Manny fans, they dont like these threads.

    Comment

      #3
      The thing that's really dumb about the "most divisions" argument is that it unfairly favors the little guys. I've seen people argue that Pacquiao is greater than Muhammad Ali simply because Ali fought only in one weight class. There is no higher division than Heavyweight! WTF was Ali supposed to do? Shrink himself down to 195, then 185, then 175, all the way down until he's a skeleton? Judge a fighter by the quality of his opponents and his victories, not by how many weight divisions he's competed in.

      Comment

        #4
        Originally posted by MusaWorld View Post
        A lot of Manny Pacquiao fans say he is the GOAT because he is the only eight division champion, I've come up with a few counter arguments for this.

        Counter Argument #1: No he isn't

        When you actually take time and research this, you'll realize Pacquiao isn't an eight division champion at all. There are four major world title belts in boxing today (WBA, WBC, IBF & WBO), Pacquaio has only won these belts in six divisions, he never won either of these belts at 140 or 126.

        Pacquiao fans will say that he won the lineal title in these divisions, but which boxers actually care about the lineal claim? Here's what Deontay Wilder thinks:


        Problems with the lineal title include:
        • There is no consistent way to fill the vacancy after the current lineal champion moves up in weight, retires or dies
        • A lot of lineal champion fight weak competition. For example, George Foreman fighting Axel Schulz, Crawford Grimsley and Lou Savarese or Tyson Fury fighting Tom Schwarz, Otto Wallin, Francesco Pianeta and Sefer Seferi. If any of those guys beat Foreman or Fury, the lineal title would've been passed around in an eternal loop of bums.
        • No one agrees on who is actually the real lineal champion. An example is in the 1990s, Cyber Boxing Zone considered Virgil Hill the lineal champion but Ring ****zine controversially recognized Roy Jones Jr. as the lineal champion

        Counter Argument #2: Roy Jones Jr. and James Toney winning belts at middleweight and all the way up to heavyweight is much more impressive

        Roy Jones Jr. and James Toney's move from Middleweight all the way up to Heavyweight covers far more weight than Manny Pacquiao's move from Flyweight to Super Welterweight. Middleweight(160)-Heavyweight(200+) covers 40+ pounds, Flyweight(112)-Super Welterweight(154) covers only 42 lbs and stops at just 42 lbs.

        Counter Argument #3: Manny Pacquiao had very weak competition moving up in weight.
        • Chatchai Sasakul, ended his career 3-3 against champions (Flyweight)
        • Lehlo Ledwaba, won a vacant belt against a non-champion. Never beat a champion in his career (Super Bantamweight)
        • Paper champion David Diaz who won his title from a washed up Erik Morales, never won a belt again (Lightweight)
        • Antonio Margarito WITHOUT the hand wraps. Had six losses and no belt, they were fighting for a vacant one (Super Welterweight)


        The only divisions he gets credit for conquering is when he beat Marquez to win his first belt at Super Featherweight and when he beat Miguel Cotto to win his first belt at Welterweight. Manny never won a belt at 140 or 126 so he’s not actually an eight division champion as we've already established, he’s really a six division champion with wins against weak opponents in four of those six divisions.

        Counter Arguments #4: Oscar De La Hoya is a six division champion, is he a GOAT too?

        If we use the Pacquiao fan logic, then De La Hoya has a real argument for being the GOAT since he and Pacquiao are both six division champions. Yet we rarely see anyone arguing that.
        - -Rarely see anyone as ******o as you.

        Comment

          #5
          Originally posted by MusaWorld View Post
          A lot of Manny Pacquiao fans say he is the GOAT because he is the only eight division champion, I've come up with a few counter arguments for this.

          Counter Argument #1: No he isn't

          When you actually take time and research this, you'll realize Pacquiao isn't an eight division champion at all. There are four major world title belts in boxing today (WBA, WBC, IBF & WBO), Pacquaio has only won these belts in six divisions, he never won either of these belts at 140 or 126.

          Pacquiao fans will say that he won the lineal title in these divisions, but which boxers actually care about the lineal claim? Here's what Deontay Wilder thinks:


          Problems with the lineal title include:
          • There is no consistent way to fill the vacancy after the current lineal champion moves up in weight, retires or dies
          • A lot of lineal champion fight weak competition. For example, George Foreman fighting Axel Schulz, Crawford Grimsley and Lou Savarese or Tyson Fury fighting Tom Schwarz, Otto Wallin, Francesco Pianeta and Sefer Seferi. If any of those guys beat Foreman or Fury, the lineal title would've been passed around in an eternal loop of bums.
          • No one agrees on who is actually the real lineal champion. An example is in the 1990s, Cyber Boxing Zone considered Virgil Hill the lineal champion but Ring ****zine controversially recognized Roy Jones Jr. as the lineal champion

          Counter Argument #2: Roy Jones Jr. and James Toney winning belts at middleweight and all the way up to heavyweight is much more impressive

          Roy Jones Jr. and James Toney's move from Middleweight all the way up to Heavyweight covers far more weight than Manny Pacquiao's move from Flyweight to Super Welterweight. Middleweight(160)-Heavyweight(200+) covers 40+ pounds, Flyweight(112)-Super Welterweight(154) covers only 42 lbs and stops at just 42 lbs.

          Counter Argument #3: Manny Pacquiao had very weak competition moving up in weight.
          • Chatchai Sasakul, ended his career 3-3 against champions (Flyweight)
          • Lehlo Ledwaba, won a vacant belt against a non-champion. Never beat a champion in his career (Super Bantamweight)
          • Paper champion David Diaz who won his title from a washed up Erik Morales, never won a belt again (Lightweight)
          • Antonio Margarito WITHOUT the hand wraps. Had six losses and no belt, they were fighting for a vacant one (Super Welterweight)


          The only divisions he gets credit for conquering is when he beat Marquez to win his first belt at Super Featherweight and when he beat Miguel Cotto to win his first belt at Welterweight. Manny never won a belt at 140 or 126 so he’s not actually an eight division champion as we've already established, he’s really a six division champion with wins against weak opponents in four of those six divisions.

          Counter Arguments #4: Oscar De La Hoya is a six division champion, is he a GOAT too?

          If we use the Pacquiao fan logic, then De La Hoya has a real argument for being the GOAT since he and Pacquiao are both six division champions. Yet we rarely see anyone arguing that.
          I think you have a fetish for Filipino cuck

          Comment

            #6
            Originally posted by Deontay Wilder View Post
            The thing that's really dumb about the "most divisions" argument is that it unfairly favors the little guys. I've seen people argue that Pacquiao is greater than Muhammad Ali simply because Ali fought only in one weight class. There is no higher division than Heavyweight! WTF was Ali supposed to do? Shrink himself down to 195, then 185, then 175, all the way down until he's a skeleton? Judge a fighter by the quality of his opponents and his victories, not by how many weight divisions he's competed in.
            I was just about to say this. it’s easier to become a multi-division champion when you start off in lower weight classes like minimumweight, flyweight, bantamweight. It’s much harder to start off as a welterweight and become a light light heavyweight champion for example. Not to mention Pacquiao started professionally boxing at 16 I think, at that age you can easily make the smaller weights. If Floyd started professionally boxing at 16 he would’ve been a flyweight easily.

            Comment

              #7
              maybe we can tell all of this to michael buffer and all those sports commentators, analysts and experts. so they wont ever say on live televisions and broadcasts that pac aint 8division champ. stop it buffer!! dont ever announce that again!!!

              Comment

                #8
                Originally posted by Stokely View Post
                I was just about to say this. it’s easier to become a multi-division champion when you start off in lower weight classes like minimumweight, flyweight, bantamweight. It’s much harder to start off as a welterweight and become a light light heavyweight champion for example. Not to mention Pacquiao started professionally boxing at 16 I think, at that age you can easily make the smaller weights. If Floyd started professionally boxing at 16 he would’ve been a flyweight easily.
                He also would not be undefeated.

                Floyd started his amateur career at age 16. He had 8 losses.

                Comment

                  #9
                  Him beating Barrera and Hatton at 126 and Hatton at 140 are much more legitimate World Championships (Ring Champions) than his ABC championship wins at 135 over Diaz and at 150 over Margarito. The Ring at that time is widely considered the true champion at those weights. Much more heavily favored universally by pundits and fans than the other ABC championships.

                  Ya'll guys are trippin. He deserves to be called an 8 weight champion without question and a 5 division, arguably 4 division lineal champion.

                  Comment

                    #10
                    8 divisions aside. Watching PAC as a skinny kid all those years ago as a flyweight it's on YouTube youd never predict hed go onto beat Thurman at 40. He looked very basic at that young age and so skinny. He came such a long way.
                    To become oldest ww and only 4 time WW champ gives credence to his 8 divisions which could have been 10.
                    Yes he can be goat. The goats were only human also.

                    Comment

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