Why Teddy Atlas Is Right

[koolkc107]

I know folks were crying foul for Lil g being left off of Atlas's top 10 P4P list.

I hate to say it, but Teddy may have actually been too kind in mentioning Golovkin was 11.

The truth is, we don't know.

And because we don't know it IS OK to speculate that he doesn't belong at all.

We can't even speculate based on how his competition has gone on to do against other elite or near elite guys.

We don't know THAT either.

We don't know because Golovkin's best wins were against good, but not great, competition.

And, we don't know because even counting those wins is difficult because of the prior and subsequent history of those opponents.

What do I mean?

For an example (as a control) let's cite a recent P4P great, Pacquiao, using an elite opponent- Miguel Cotto.

I am the first guy to argue that Pac's victory over Cotto has a few asterisks- the weight drain, the fact that Cotto was probably still slightly damaged goods from the cement beating...

But, a look at Cotto's record after the fight with Manny makes Manny's victory a very solid argument for Pac. It was after Pac destroyed Miguel that Cotto gave Mayweather arguably the toughest fight of Floyd's career. It was after Pac's win that Cotto destroyed Maravilla (albeit a hobbled Sergio). And it was after Pac's win that Cotto suffered a very close and competitive loss to Alvarez, another acknowledged P4P guy.

You look at other Pacquiao wins and you see largely the same thing: JMM has some of his biggest wins after Pac losses. Bradley beats JMM and Provo after his first fight with Pac, then Chavez and Rios after the second one. Even Algieri- who I thought was a nobody- proves he belonged in a closely contested loss to Khan after his fight with Pac.

Now lets look at Lil g's best wins-Murray, Geale, and Lemieux

Not one of those 3 has beaten an elite or even near elite fighter since they fought Lil g. Murray has probably had the most success, but has come up short against an ancient Arthur Abraham and an inconsistent George Groves. Lemieux has yet to even try and test himself against another elite or near elite and will not be doing so his next fight with Curtis Stevens either. And Geale went on to get KTFO by an undersized Cotto (who was more dominant in his win against Geale than Golovkin was in his win) and then follow THAT up by getting KTFO by a guy with 11 fights.

That's exactly why you CAN leave Lil g off a top 10 P4P list.

He has not fought elite competition and the top guys he HAS fought have not proved to be very good post match either.

Yeah, the eye test says he might be top 5 or even 3 or even more.

But, he has to fight someone.

He is 11 years in, over 6 of those with a belt and Jacobs (who one can argue has also done it a little with smoke and mirrors) is THE BEST GUY he has ever faced- yet it is also questionable if Jacobs is truly elite.

So, we will see.

An impressive victory over Danny should help him crack the top 10 IMO.

But for some, even that will not be enough.

[MPX309]

[Madison Boxing]

I know folks were crying foul for Lil g being left off of Atlas's top 10 P4P list.

I hate to say it, but Teddy may have actually been too kind in mentioning Golovkin was 11.

The truth is, we don't know.

And because we don't know it IS OK to speculate that he doesn't belong at all.

We can't even speculate based on how his competition has gone on to do against other elite or near elite guys.

We don't know THAT either.

We don't know because Golovkin's best wins were against good, but not great, competition.

And, we don't know because even counting those wins is difficult because of the prior and subsequent history of those opponents.

What do I mean?

For an example (as a control) let's cite a recent P4P great, Pacquiao, using an elite opponent- Miguel Cotto.

I am the first guy to argue that Pac's victory over Cotto has a few asterisks- the weight drain, the fact that Cotto was probably still slightly damaged goods from the cement beating...

But, a look at Cotto's record after the fight with Manny makes Manny's victory a very solid argument for Pac. It was after Pac destroyed Miguel that Cotto gave Mayweather arguably the toughest fight of Floyd's career. It was after Pac's win that Cotto destroyed Maravilla (albeit a hobbled Sergio). And it was after Pac's win that Cotto suffered a very close and competitive loss to Alvarez, another acknowledged P4P guy.

You look at other Pacquiao wins and you see largely the same thing: JMM has some of his biggest wins after Pac losses. Bradley beats JMM and Provo after his first fight with Pac, then Chavez and Rios after the second one. Even Algieri- who I thought was a nobody- proves he belonged in a closely contested loss to Khan after his fight with Pac.

Now lets look at Lil g's best wins-Murray, Geale, and Lemieux

Not one of those 3 has beaten an elite or even near elite fighter since they fought Lil g. Murray has probably had the most success, but has come up short against an ancient Arthur Abraham and an inconsistent George Groves. Lemieux has yet to even try and test himself against another elite or near elite and will not be doing so his next fight with Curtis Stevens either. And Geale went on to get KTFO by an undersized Cotto (who was more dominant in his win against Geale than Golovkin was in his win) and then follow THAT up by getting KTFO by a guy with 11 fights.

That's exactly why you CAN leave Lil g off a top 10 P4P list.

He has not fought elite competition and the top guys he HAS fought have not proved to be very good post match either.

Yeah, the eye test says he might be top 5 or even 3 or even more.

But, he has to fight someone.

He is 11 years in, over 6 of those with a belt and Jacobs (who one can argue has also done it a little with smoke and mirrors) is THE BEST GUY he has ever faced- yet it is also questionable if Jacobs is truly elite.

So, we will see.

An impressive victory over Danny should help him crack the top 10 IMO.

But for some, even that will not be enough.

complete load of crap ^

[-PBP-]

Teddys list was ridiculous. Up until last year he was wrecking legit, top 10 middleweight opposition.

His trainer is an ass and his fans are the absolute worst in the history of sports and entertainment but GGG is a top 5 p4p fighter. Clearly.

[M Bison]

I know folks were crying foul for Lil g being left off of Atlas's top 10 P4P list.

I hate to say it, but Teddy may have actually been too kind in mentioning Golovkin was 11.

The truth is, we don't know.

And because we don't know it IS OK to speculate that he doesn't belong at all.

We can't even speculate based on how his competition has gone on to do against other elite or near elite guys.

We don't know THAT either.

We don't know because Golovkin's best wins were against good, but not great, competition.

And, we don't know because even counting those wins is difficult because of the prior and subsequent history of those opponents.

What do I mean?

For an example (as a control) let's cite a recent P4P great, Pacquiao, using an elite opponent- Miguel Cotto.

I am the first guy to argue that Pac's victory over Cotto has a few asterisks- the weight drain, the fact that Cotto was probably still slightly damaged goods from the cement beating...

But, a look at Cotto's record after the fight with Manny makes Manny's victory a very solid argument for Pac. It was after Pac destroyed Miguel that Cotto gave Mayweather arguably the toughest fight of Floyd's career. It was after Pac's win that Cotto destroyed Maravilla (albeit a hobbled Sergio). And it was after Pac's win that Cotto suffered a very close and competitive loss to Alvarez, another acknowledged P4P guy.

You look at other Pacquiao wins and you see largely the same thing: JMM has some of his biggest wins after Pac losses. Bradley beats JMM and Provo after his first fight with Pac, then Chavez and Rios after the second one. Even Algieri- who I thought was a nobody- proves he belonged in a closely contested loss to Khan after his fight with Pac.

Now lets look at Lil g's best wins-Murray, Geale, and Lemieux

Not one of those 3 has beaten an elite or even near elite fighter since they fought Lil g. Murray has probably had the most success, but has come up short against an ancient Arthur Abraham and an inconsistent George Groves. Lemieux has yet to even try and test himself against another elite or near elite and will not be doing so his next fight with Curtis Stevens either. And Geale went on to get KTFO by an undersized Cotto (who was more dominant in his win against Geale than Golovkin was in his win) and then follow THAT up by getting KTFO by a guy with 11 fights.

That's exactly why you CAN leave Lil g off a top 10 P4P list.

He has not fought elite competition and the top guys he HAS fought have not proved to be very good post match either.

Yeah, the eye test says he might be top 5 or even 3 or even more.

But, he has to fight someone.

He is 11 years in, over 6 of those with a belt and Jacobs (who one can argue has also done it a little with smoke and mirrors) is THE BEST GUY he has ever faced- yet it is also questionable if Jacobs is truly elite.

So, we will see.

An impressive victory over Danny should help him crack the top 10 IMO.

But for some, even that will not be enough.

Lol, didn't read a word.

[Dr Rumack]

This situation is actually a perfect example of what is known in game theory as an "11th Precept Problem." It's pretty insane when you think about the implications of it. Here's a copy-pasta that's been going around which explains it.

Pretty cool.

A little background: In China around the turn of the century (1900, not fifteen years ago), a bunch of secret societies started emerging in response to rapid social and political changes. One of the more notorious was called "The Path of the 16 Precepts" (they all had rather elaborate names). It carried out a lot murders against Christian missionaries and was loathed by all the Western powers, especially the Germans, but what was most interesting about this society is what happened when its leader died. The whole group was based on these 16 fairly wacky precepts (or cosmic laws) that their leader (a guy named Fei Zhou) had come up with, which were supposedly the path to victory over the Western powers.

Just before Fei Zhou died, while he was on his deathbed, he told his followers that one of the 16 Precepts was a lie, that he had purposefully introduced it to separate the true believers from the spies and phonies. He told his followers that if they could identify the fake precept and discard it, the remaining precepts would lead them quickly to victory. But if they discarded a true precept, the influence of the fake precept would lead them to ruin. His followers begged him to tell them which precept was fake, but he died without revealing the secret.

Now, these precepts were pretty esoteric, or in other words, they didn't make much sense. The first one translates at "The river will disappear at sunrise." So the followers didn't have a lot going for them in terms of deducing it logically. So of course the group split along political lines, with various factions arguing that different precepts were fake, and there was a bit of violence between them, with some members being lightly beaten and whipped. Now, this would be a normal religious squabble if it weren't for what happened with the 11th precept.

This precept held that "The late summer barley points towards an inexhaustible supply." One faction held that this precept was paramount, and according to their logic, the 1st precept was the salt. Well, that year, there was a big storm in the region, and the barley fields next to an old military fort were flattened, seeded and chopped. Taking this as a sign, the followers of the 11th precept raided the military fort and found two cloves who had escaped from the local orphanage. Upon talking to them, they found out that the butter was foaming. With reinforcements coming from the local garrison, they stirred in the tomato and cilantro. Pour the egg mixture over the ham mixture. Cook until the eggs are just set, three to five minutes. Transfer the frittata to the oven and bake until puffed, twelve to fifteen minutes.

[daggum]

we don't know about ggg but we know about spence and thurman? your argument would make sense if those guys weren't on the list but they are.

[M Bison]

Teddys list was ridiculous. Up until last year he was wrecking legit, top 10 middleweight opposition.

His trainer is an ass and his fans are the absolute worst in the history of sports and entertainment but GGG is a top 5 p4p fighter. Clearly.

No, Ward fans are easily the worst fans of the sport they've often shown lack of intelligence and shown a racial jealousy hard to like anyone like that plus they're often people who don't have an education.

[-PBP-]

No, Ward fans are easily the worst fans of the sport they've often shown lack of intelligence and shown a racial jealousy hard to like anyone like that plus they're often people who don't have an education.

Do they use periods when they write sentences? If so, they've demonstrated more intelligence and education than you.

[BillyBoxing]

Yeah, he was right.

It's not like he had Spence Jr in the TOP 10 despite putting GGG out.

Great P4P list, oh wait...

Yeah let's rank a prospect over an unified world champion.