Was Rocky Marciano an ATG?

[DannyNL]

Was he an ATG? Yes, unquestionably. He was the world heavyweight champion for 3-4 years, back when there was only ONE world heavyweight champion.

Now, was Rocky overrated? I believe so. As you mentioned, he fought a lot of slobs in a very weak division. But all a man can do is fight who you put in front of him, so Rocky will always be remembered as a HW great.

[-Antonio-]

If Marciano is an ATG then so is Wlad and so is Tyson. Marciano dominated a weak era. Charles is a legend, but he was past his best by then. Personally I think if Marciano fought in today's age he would have been a Light heavyweight.

That said he is one of my all time favorite guys to watch. He had such a short reach and he was so scrappy.

[Bram]

I have never understood why some people blow up the importance of a few losses. Tyson was obviously not himself after losing his four best prime years in prison. Luckily he showed us four years of his prime years before he went to jail. There was nothing left in him after these 8 years, his fans watched him only out of nostalgia then.

Marciano didn't lose, but so what? He didn't fight any high level competition, because all the "big names" he fought were washed up, except maybe Archie Moore whose career never ended, but he was 7 years older than Rocky.

Tyson also fought in a down era of the division, as you stated, but the way he won was spectacular. The way George Foreman won was also rather spectacular and that is mainly why he is ranked so high.

What was so spectacular with Rocky Marciano?




I don't rank him as ATG since there are more than 100 other fighters who were much, much better and who faced much, much better competition. If you put Marciano in your top 50, you take a place from a fighter who was much, much worthier this place, in my opinion.

I have never understood the glory of an undefeated record. For me this means nothing. Like when I didn't care if my new girlfriend was ****** or not.

What is much more important for me is if the fighter has shown courage or not. An undefeated record is a strong indication that the fighter doesn't like challenges. This is definitely not a positive.


.

I'm not blowing up the importance of "a few", there was one in particular and virtually everyone who I would rank ahead of Marciano had more than he did, including Henry Armstrong who had more than 20.

In Tyson's case, in his prime he lost to Buster Douglas. He didn't 'get caught', he was systematically broken down and knocked out in his prime by arguably the worst undisputed heavyweight champion in the modern era of boxing. Tyson's legacy as a fighter is almost exclusively built on the big play. His knockouts were so insanely beautiful that we tend to forget who exactly was getting knocked out which, as I tried to say before, is what we do to Marciano with his record. We see this big and shiny undefeated record and that's enough. Had he stuck around, I don't think Marciano would have went through Sonny Liston and Floyd Patterson still undefeated and even if he had beaten Douglas and not gone to prison, Holyfield, Lennox Lewis and a few others were on their way for Tyson.

The two had comparable opposition at their best - primarily less than average save for some old greats who stuck around too long - had similar results and, at least for me, rank very near one another historically, with the large determining factor being that Marciano was never beaten by one of those less than average opponents and certainly not destroyed by one during his prime.

If you think there were 100 better fighters than Marciano, that's fine, it's your opinion I disagree with you. But to talk about courage and challenges in regards to him is something different. Marciano was no cutey, he blocked punches with his face and his ribs. He was one of the greatest brawling fighters in my opinion and that was what was spectacular about him. Those type of fighters don't do what he did for the most part. He won fights because of his heart, his chin and a big punch. He was trying to be the last man standing and he was the last man standing every time he fought.

[billeau2]

These questions are debatable. There are different ways of determining a fighters status. Many people feel as though just being a heavyweight champion is worth more currency than a champion in a lighter division.

If you look at marciano's record he beat some guys with good records coming up. Before we discount this we should well ask if in 60 years or so, we would remember some of the fighters that we see as good solid performers. the men Marciano beat were not outstanding on the whole but, we have records in boxing and some fighters who we judge giving a bit of a pass in the competition department...for example Mike Tyson. Right now one can make an argument that some of the guys he beat were skilled...but not memorable by any stretch... Mike even lost to the best guys he faced.

With that said I look at Marciano in a few distinct ways:

1) as a possible ATG...No, but on the line! close.
2) As a great heavyweight...Yes. Not one of the best, but very good, great.
3) With respect to his record I think Marciano in terms of competition, and all things considered, being a heavyweight, etc matches well with Floyd in this accomplishment. Again, this is specifically regarding this record. Considering the comp both men fought, when they fought whom they fought, considering inclinations like, picking certain fights, the adversity to ovecome to get their hand raised every time, etc. This would include the contraversal first Floyd, Castillo fight and the possability that Starza gave Rocky a close fight.

[creekrat77]

Some people used to make a big deal out of Rocky winning 49 fights, with no losses, but to be an ATG you need to win over top competition and Rocky never did that. He fought many "big names"; Joe Louis, Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, etc.; but they were way past their prime when Rocky fought them.

So my answer is: No, because he only fought "bums". A 49-0 record means nothing if the "big names" you face are not in their prime anymore.

People who consider Rocky Marciano as top 50 ATG know nothing about boxing.

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Then what does that make Larry Holmes? Klitscko?

[El-blanco]

I'm not blowing up the importance of "a few", there was one in particular and virtually everyone who I would rank ahead of Marciano had more than he did, including Henry Armstrong who had more than 20.

In Tyson's case, in his prime he lost to Buster Douglas. He didn't 'get caught', he was systematically broken down and knocked out in his prime by arguably the worst undisputed heavyweight champion in the modern era of boxing. Tyson's legacy as a fighter is almost exclusively built on the big play. His knockouts were so insanely beautiful that we tend to forget who exactly was getting knocked out which, as I tried to say before, is what we do to Marciano with his record. We see this big and shiny undefeated record and that's enough. Had he stuck around, I don't think Marciano would have went through Sonny Liston and Floyd Patterson still undefeated and even if he had beaten Douglas and not gone to prison, Holyfield, Lennox Lewis and a few others were on their way for Tyson.

The two had comparable opposition at their best - primarily less than average save for some old greats who stuck around too long - had similar results and, at least for me, rank very near one another historically, with the large determining factor being that Marciano was never beaten by one of those less than average opponents and certainly not destroyed by one during his prime.

If you think there were 100 better fighters than Marciano, that's fine, it's your opinion I disagree with you. But to talk about courage and challenges in regards to him is something different. Marciano was no cutey, he blocked punches with his face and his ribs. He was one of the greatest brawling fighters in my opinion and that was what was spectacular about him. Those type of fighters don't do what he did for the most part. He won fights because of his heart, his chin and a big punch. He was trying to be the last man standing and he was the last man standing every time he fought.

Nothing more to add to that, excellent post.

[Philantro]

I'm not blowing up the importance of "a few", there was one in particular and virtually everyone who I would rank ahead of Marciano had more than he did, including Henry Armstrong who had more than 20.

In Tyson's case, in his prime he lost to Buster Douglas. He didn't 'get caught', he was systematically broken down and knocked out in his prime by arguably the worst undisputed heavyweight champion in the modern era of boxing.

You must remember who Mike was then. Where he came from and all the problems he had in his life. He had been distracted for a long time, and he definitely underestimated the challenge from Douglas.

Remember also that the fight was in Tokyo, Japan. There were too many distractions for Mike at that time. It was a disaster waiting to happen.

You are too critical, in my opinion, when it comes to judging Mike. With his background and with the people he had around him, it was expected that he would slip up now and then.

Tyson's legacy as a fighter is almost exclusively built on the big play. His knockouts were so insanely beautiful that we tend to forget who exactly was getting knocked out which, as I tried to say before, is what we do to Marciano with his record. We see this big and shiny undefeated record and that's enough. Had he stuck around, I don't think Marciano would have went through Sonny Liston and Floyd Patterson still undefeated and even if he had beaten Douglas and not gone to prison, Holyfield, Lennox Lewis and a few others were on their way for Tyson.

The two had comparable opposition at their best - primarily less than average save for some old greats who stuck around too long - had similar results and, at least for me, rank very near one another historically, with the large determining factor being that Marciano was never beaten by one of those less than average opponents and certainly not destroyed by one during his prime.

If you think there were 100 better fighters than Marciano, that's fine, it's your opinion I disagree with you. But to talk about courage and challenges in regards to him is something different. Marciano was no cutey, he blocked punches with his face and his ribs. He was one of the greatest brawling fighters in my opinion and that was what was spectacular about him. Those type of fighters don't do what he did for the most part. He won fights because of his heart, his chin and a big punch. He was trying to be the last man standing and he was the last man standing every time he fought.

I don't mean that Marciano lacked courage, it was a general statement referring to fighters who are obsessed with their undefeated record.


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[boliodogs]

Ezzard Charles had lost to both Harold Johnson and Nino Valdes, and was way out of his prime when he fought Marciano. Ezzard was slightly lighter than Marciano in their first fight and slightly heavier in their second.

Archie Moore was 7 years older and slightly lighter than Marciano.

Joe Walcott was 9 years older than Marciano and well past his prime.

Joe Louis was forced to fight in a comeback out of financial problems. Sad, sad. This fight counts for nothing.

Do you really mean light heavyweight?



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Yes. Marciano could easily have fought at 175 even in his day of same day weigh ins. Heavyweights don't have to make weight and I have seen photos of Marciano weighing in in street clothes and only weighing in the low 180s. He didn't skip meals of beverages for the weigh in either.Marciano weighed in as light as 176. Charles is often called the best light heavyweight ever but it's not a proven fact. Charles took loses at 175 and Harold Johnson was a great light heavyweight. Valdez was a good, very large heavyweight. Yes, Joe Louis, Walcott and Charles were all old and past prime when Marciano fought them. Still they were the guys he had to beat to win and keep the heavyweight title. I don't think there was anyone Marciano should have fought who he avoided or ducked. If you aren't as high on Marciano as I am that's your right and maybe you are right and I have him overrated. This all time great stuff is opinion based and can't really be proven. There are no right or wrong answers. What ever someone thinks about a fighters place in history is the right answer for them.

[BigAlexSand]

Yes, and too ask such a ****** question is moronic. Considering the mans limitations; he won the most coveted prizes in the history of the sport. Although a small man, with very small arms, a man easy to cut, far from balanced and often referred to as clumsy... He accomplished a whole hell of a lot. People give Marciano criticism for his win against Louis, Charles, Walcott being saw as past prime but fact remains those three named where dangerous to the end and ATGs some say top 10 heavyweights... Yet this is often over looked by the likes of Mayweather and Pacquaio, yet I don't rate either of their past prime opponents near as great as Marcianos 3. Not to mention beating a great boxer in La Starza and coming back to knock out Moore.

[billeau2]

You must remember who Mike was then. Where he came from and all the problems he had in his life. He had been distracted for a long time, and he definitely underestimated the challenge from Douglas.

Remember also that the fight was in Tokyo, Japan. There were too many distractions for Mike at that time. It was a disaster waiting to happen.

You are too critical, in my opinion, when it comes to judging Mike. With his background and with the people he had around him, it was expected that he would slip up now and then.




I don't mean that Marciano lacked courage, it was a general statement referring to fighters who are obsessed with their undefeated record.


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Dude....Every fighter had distractions! If you research Marciano you would see that his taste for the ladies made Mike look like a choir boy...He also loved to eat...dude could inhale a bowl of pasta! (I am exxagerating about the pasta ahem). Tyson had a rough time? Jim Braddock, the Cindarella man had to fight with arthritis and the knowledge that if he did not win his family could starve to death.... Joe Louis? pressure? what pressure? every service man counting on you to win the war in the ring for America....as a black man.

Distractions are part of the game. I bet I could become heavyweight champion...at least heavyweight...if you took my wife and kids, chained me to the floor, let me out to train, eat and ****.

The very definition of focus is when you can commit homicide in a confined space and all you have to worry about is punching the other guy in the face as hard as you can.