Comments Thread For: Roach: Marquez Had The Win, Let Final Rounds Slip Away

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I'm gonna get attacked but did it ever occur to you that maybe they have been trying to ween PAC off the steroids in the last couple of fights in preparation for the drug testing for the Mayweather fight.........He has no technique for you guys to be saying he's pound for pound or even mentioning him with the greatest of all time......it's absurd..his power scared Mosley, Clottey but all of a sudden he was reduced to a weak slugger against Marquez who himself is smaller than and hits softer than Mosley ........people are saying he didn't open up against Marquez cause he would get counter punched.....why is he scared to exchange with Marquez who he had dropped four times who never had him down in two previous fights ?? this whole thing stinks.......while i liked Pac's Mike Tyson like approach in the ring i realize he has been fighting guys coming off loses or who are weight drained or fighting way out their weight class......and i believe in m heart that Ariza had been involved in giving Manny something illegal which he is not using anymore..............Arum will not let this man fight Pac until he squeezes out some other fight he thinks Mann can win.....it's his cash cow and MAYWEATHER WOULD EMBARRASS AND KNOCKOUT PACQUIAO..........i am a boxing fan before i was a Pacquiao fan and it is what it is !!!!!

Interesting post. I agree with your assessment of Pac, and you made some valid points..... but I am not sure about the PED thing.

I wish we knew.

I just think that Marquez is extremely hard to hit cleanly when he is on point, his defence is under-rated, and his movement/technique give Manny fits because he cant plant and he cant get into any kind of rhythm.

You could be right, but that is just conjecture, like I said, I wish we knew.

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i have it 115-113 for pacquiao...

marquez did not do enough to win the fight...marquez got contented with his counter-punching style...counter-punching alone will not impress the judges...he should have carry the fight from the start to end to impress the judges...

judges simply score for pacman because he was the aggressive fighter...superiority is the name of the game...he was attacking marquez all over...

one thing, did not marquez said that he will not win a close fight with pacquiao?

Only naive kids score for aggression, or score for the fighter going forward. Why should a fighter be credited for inaccuracy, offering his opponent opportunities, and for unnecessarily expending energy?

Besides, I actually watched the fight.

Marquez won.

3-0.

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Dear Juan Manuel Marquez,

First, congratulations on an excellent performance against Manny Pacquiao on November 12. You demonstrated that more than any other fighter, you have figured out the Pacquiao puzzle. You deserve great credit for that.

In your post fight interview you said you were robbed, and that you might retire. That’s understandable in the heat of the moment right after the fight, but after you’ve had a chance to reflect on it, I hope you will elect to continue. It is clear you have the skills and physical ability, and Bernard Hopkins has certainly taught us that 38 is not as old as we thought it was. Your performance against Manny reinforces that.

If you elect to continue fighting, and in particular if you elect to challenge Manny Pacquiao to a fourth fight, I would respectfully suggest that you need to be aware of some realities about judges scoring. Had you been more fully concious and accepting of them this time, you might have won the fight by pushing yourself harder in the later rounds when the fight still hung in the balance. True, by pushing yourself you would be exposing yourself to more risk — even to a possible knockout, but that is always the way of it when you are the challenger attempting to take the belt away from the champion.

The judges in Nevada are charged to look for a) clean, effective punching, b) effective aggression, c) ring generalship, and d) defense. A study of how US (and most other) judges score over the last 10 years shows that in a close fight, the judges almost always favor the fighter who presses the action and is perceived as the aggressor in the fight. Being the aggressor almost always generates a higher punch output, and even if the punches aren’t completely clean, the judges reward the attacking style which, even if it doesn’t result in clean punches, does expose the aggressor to greater risk than his opponent–something that the judges evidently feel should be rewarded. Your reliance on counterpunching, while it may produce cleaner landed shots, will always put you at a disadvantage with judges in a close fight if you rely heavily on the counterpunching style and do not act as the aggressor.

To state the equation very clearly: The very act of launching an attack against a composed, skillful opponent whose guard is up is a risky manuever which exposes the attacker. By taking that risk and launching that attack, the attacker gains favor in the eyes of the judges, and even if his punches don’t land as cleanly as your counterpunches, he gets credit for a) forcing the action and being the aggressor, b) taking the risk associated with attacking a skilled, waiting opponent.

In your first two fights with Manny Pacquiao, while you were oriented toward counterpunching, you also launched offensive attacks and in both of those fights you had a higher volume of punches that Pacquiao; a higher landed punch total; and a higher number of solid, compelling punches. But in those fights — he knocked you down four times. There is no doubt that if you had not been knocked down, you would have won both those fights because all of the other statistics were in your favor.

But this is not true of your most recent fight. In that fight Pacquiao had a higher volume of attacks; higher volume of punches; higher number of landed punches; higher number of landed powershots. Your counters were effective and in some cases dramatic — but by its very nature, your counterpunch oriented approach will impress the fans (and your trainer, evidently), but not the judges — at least it won’ t impress them enough to offset the advantages that Pacquiao is gaining from his constantly being the aggressor; constantly exposing himself to risk by launching attacks against a waiting opponent; and in doing so generating an overall impression that he’s moving forward while you’re moving backwards; he’s getting off more punches (hence taking more risk); he’s landing more punches even if they’re not as clean (after all he’s punching a waiting opponent, not an exposed one).

Also, if I may offer one other piece of advice. In each of these fights, your Hall of Fame trainer Mr. Berestain has repeatedly told you in the corner between rounds that you are winning the fight. By now, given your highly intelligent nature, you must realize that no matter what Mr. Berestain says, you must keep fighting as if you are not ahead. You are the challenger; the underdog; and you are using a counterpunching style that puts you at a disadvantage with judges. You must never assume you are ahead. In the fight on November 12, if you had gone into the “championship rounds” with the attitude that you must win these rounds, the outcome of the fight might have been different.

Sincerely,,

A Fight Fan who appreciates what you bring to the sport

What a fkn ridiculous post that was.

Marquez learned that against Norwood well over a decade ago dude ^^

Marquez was easily winning that fight by the end of the 9th round, he was preparing for the obvious incoming from a desperate Manny who needed a late KO by that stage, which never even looked like happening.

Marquez soaked up Pacquiao's attempt to steal it, and moved/countered him effectively to close the show..... just like EVERY SINGLE FIGHTER BAR NONE who watched the fight has stated.

Marquez 3-0.

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Lmao at pac man being an atg, hes good but this fight should let you all know the deal with this cat!

EXACTLY !!

This ATG **** is absurd, I have always stated that, and always asked for an indicator as to what Pac has achieved that could be regarded as "great".

And yet fanboys state that he could compete with Duran, Leonard, and Moore

Fkn ridiculous, SRL would have KHTFO, no question.

He is a kool story, but Pac is simply not on that level.

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He and Hopkins have the best resume among active fighters. Including Floyd.. Pfft...Not calling him an ATG is already an insult to people who actually follow the sport..

I dare you to debate that with me.

What a ****.

James Toney is a far better fighter than Pacquiao, prime JT was at least a level above him.

Name one thing that Pacquiao has achieved that could be traditionally regarded as great, just one.

8 divisional titles ?

1.) Dont be fkn ridiculous, you are attempting to compare Pacquiao with guys who fought under the original divisional system

2.) Belts mean nothing now, ask David Diaz, or the kids Canelo/JCC jnr

3.) I can shred his divisional title claims, just ask me

Forget 8, because he never won a fw title, forget the catch-weights, because that is pu55y b1tch rubbish..... Hatton? Diaz? Really?

Go there..... I dare you ^^

Name one thing that Pacquiao has achieved that could be traditionally regarded as great, just one..... then, you can answer the following questions.....

A truly great fighter will leave more answers than questions, but Pacquiao has left more questions than answers.

Questions like.....

* Could Pac have beaten Zahir Raheem, cuz he didnt?

* Could Pac have beaten JMM in a rematch at 130, cuz he didnt want none?

* Could Pac have beaten Soto, cuz he didnt?

* Could Pac have beaten Guzman, cuz he didnt?

* Could Pac have beaten Campbell, cuz he didnt?

* Could Pac have beaten any top lightweight, cuz he didnt?

* Could Pac have beaten a top jww, cuz he didnt?

* Could Pac have beaten a prime Hoya, cuz he didnt?

* Could Pac have beaten Hoya at 154, cuz he didnt?

* Could Pac have beaten a prime Cotto, cuz he didnt?

* Could Pac have beaten Cotto at 147, cuz he didnt?

* Could Pac have beaten a prime Margarito, cuz he didnt?

* Could Pac have beaten Margarito at 154, cuz he didnt?

* Could Pac have beaten Margarito with 10oz gloves, cuz he didnt?

* Could Pac have beaten a Clottey that fought back, cuz he didnt?

* Could Pac have beaten a genuine jmw, cuz he didnt?

* Could Pac have beaten a prime Mosley, cuz he didnt?

* Could Pac have beaten a past-prime Mosley when he first had the chance back when Shane was ranked the #1 welter, cuz he didnt want none?

* Could Pac have beaten Ortiz (a guy who laid hands on him in sparring - Roach named that session as "the best sparring ever", a guy who beat a fighter who Arum admitted was on Pac's own shortlist, and a guy who was ranked higher than any welter Pac has ever fought), cuz he didnt want none?

* Could Pac beat JMM now at 140 (Pac's best weight, according to Manny), cuz he will not allow that to happen, 145lbs (a weight that Manny has never made himself ) was the deal-breaker? *** me, that is absurd.

* Could Pac have beaten Martinez for that vacant WBC title, cuz he didnt?

* Could Pac beat Martinez at 150 now ("I will fight anyone at 150" ~ Manny Pacquiao), cuz he dont want none? Pac? Manny? Where'd that guy go?

* Could Pac beat Mayweather, cuz he hasnt?

* Could Pac pass Olympic Style Drug Testing, cuz he dont want none?

Jeez dude, that is one helluva shopping list full of unanswered questions about a supposedly great fighter

I mean, that list is not complete either, **** we can go right back to fly, could Pac have beaten Too Sharp? Why didnt that fight happen, just like at lw, jww, and welter?

WTF ?

Surely that cant be right, because Pacquiao certainly had not achieved traditional greatness before the highly controversial win/loss to Marquez?

Many fighters achieved greatness by fighting under the old divisional system, back when there was only one champion, using same day weigh-in's, and they did it by fighting as the smaller man..... Pacquiao has certainly never done anything like that.

Are you sure that you arent just drinking the kool-aid dude ?

Because it is inconceivable that a truly great fighter could have a list of unanswered questions hanging over his head that happens to be longer than his list of achievements?

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pacs name also isnt on alot of peoples list, once people realize these list are all personal opinions then maybe we can get past this, pac is a great warrior and i commend him

positives: He has power, he can take a punch, hes fast, puts on exciting fights, hes one of the hardest working fighters to ever grace the sport.

Negatives: Hes just a terrible boxer, he cant adjust, he cant cut off the ring, hes super predictable in his offense, he cant deal with movement, he doesnt know when to circle left or right, he cant deal with counter punches, has no defense (which is why hes pretty much finished at the age of 32)

the conclusion: Pac is one hell of an athlete but when it comes to the art of boxing he just simply does not have it, sure he sells out stadiums, he excites people who have no idea what boxing is, hes captured the media with his so called innocent personality but hes not a top "boxer" maybe its in the top 25 warriors who have graced the sport of boxing but hes nowhere near a top boxer!

I base my atgS on thier ability to box not excite crowds, peace!

A very, very, good summary. Good post man.

Let the kids and fanboys think what they want, and good luck to them, but they are getting e-bashed if those naive b1tches *** with my sport.

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he bowed his head down coz hes disappointed that he didnt KO Marquez and he could have done better....haters always misinterpret things

Pac got touched up AGAIN, and he knows it.

The look on Pacquiao's face immediately after that fight was identical to the look on his face before the winner was announced in the second fight.

He looked like a beaten man who knew that he lost the fight.

Pacquiao knows who won that fight, no question.

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Anyone said Pacquiao lost the fight is a moron. Did you all see how Marquez cheated by stepping on Pacquaio's foot to make it a close fight see video

Dont be so ******, that happens all the time when a conventional fights a cacky and either use lateral movement.

No dude, I agree with EVERY SINGLE FIGHTER BAR NONE who watched that fight..... Marquez won.

I have heard dozens of breakdowns from pro fighters, EVERY SINGLE ONE gave the fight to Marquez including Pacquiao's own stablemates Khan and Chavez.

3-0 Marquez.

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This is common when a southpaw faces an orthodox fighter. There is also a battle of feet positioning going on, to give the best possible angle, and take away your opponents angle. This is not cheating, it just happens.

chardrnm, *** off with your naive opinions, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I much prefer to consider the opinions of the 30+ professional fighters who have ALL indicated that Marquez won the fight.

[hanzoh74]

What a fkn ridiculous post that was.

Marquez learned that against Norwood well over a decade ago dude ^^

Marquez was easily winning that fight by the end of the 9th round, he was preparing for the obvious incoming from a desperate Manny who needed a late KO by that stage, which never even looked like happening.

Marquez soaked up Pacquiao's attempt to steal it, and moved/countered him effectively to close the show..... just like EVERY SINGLE FIGHTER BAR NONE who watched the fight has stated.

Marquez 3-0.

as if we want a *****s opinions in this fight...we dont need ur opinion here might as well keep it to urself