A question to all of the Black,RIcan,Asian

[tommyhearns804]

ect ect ect memebers of this Forum.I know what whites will say so i am asking you.How many of you believe Marciano is more skilled than a prime Tyson,Foreman, or Frazier?How many of you believe a 180 pound small cruiserweight like Marciano who was knocked down by Archie Moore a natural middleweight could handle Foremans,Tysons,Lewis,Tuas,or Bowes punching Power?And how many of you think a 180 pound fighter like Maricano could knock out Tyson,Foreman,or Tua?
Just curious i just joined the ******** boxing forum and just about every member thought Marciano was more skilled than the fighters i named and that he could take all of their punches and he could knock them all out in one round.I just want to see what people of color thought about this.
Thanks .

[Sir_Jose]

Well as a proud member of the African American comunity i will answer this.

Marciano although tough as all **** he was highly unskilled. He was a plodder who came forward and ate punches in order to land his. Now dont get it twisted there is nothing wrong with that if it works for you. He was pretty slow and his footwork was pretty bad, but his saving grace was his ungodly power that he had to rely on to bail himself oout on more than one ocasion.

When you talk about head to head its gonna be hard for any heavyweight from that era to match up against the bigger guys of later generations. Please save all that dilusional BS about weight not mattering cause he had heart.

[+= El Jefe=+]

Marciano's skill wasnt the great thing about him i think his heart, power, and training habits were his strengt.
but to answer your question no he was way too small i think he is more of a nowday's light HW or Cruiser

[tommyhearns804]

Exactly but even his power is overrated even for a 180 pound fighter.Who did he knock out who was known for having a good chin?He basically padded his record against other smaller fighters like himself.Alot of fighters pile of impressive ko records fighting talentless bums.
Even when Marciano start fighting black fighters later in his career it showed nothing.3 of the guys he fought were pushing 40 or were over 40.2 of them were natural middleweights (Moore and Charles)who were knocked out by middleweights.3 of them had over 10 or more losers at the time they fought Marciano.(Walcott had 16 loses,Charles had 10 loses and Moore had 20 loses) all 4 of them had been knocked down over 5 times.Moore had been knocked down maybe 20 or so times at the time he fought Marciano.Marciano fought a black fighter by the name of Tiger Ted Lowry earlier in his career and based on everything i read Marciano lost but got a gift win.Lowry had 46 loses at this point in time.Lowry was 177 pounds for this fight.A few years later Maricano had to struggle again to get a win again Lowry.
Heart is non factor when i comes to fighting fighters larger and stronger than you are.How many of you think Frazier had heart?Did it matter when he fought Foreman?And it wouldn't help Maricano if he fought any decent 200 pound heavyweight who wasn't a complete bum.
Everything about Marciano is overrated.His little fans will tell you how he couldnt be knocked out.Maricano was knocked out in one round by Corley Wallace as a amateur.This is why Maricano and his people ducked Wallace as a pro.You Maricano fans need to get over him.He isn't a heavyweight great because he isn't a heavyweight period.Just a fighter who was lucky to fight in a era where he could duck black fighters until they were either to old.Lucky that he could fight 180 pound fighters and still be considered a heavyweight.

[Bahamut Zero]

Prime Marciano would've KTFO Prime Roy Jones! And the Lacy's and Tarver's of the world...

[ProBox1]

Here is a great article written by Monte Cox of the International Boxing Research Organization and it pretty much sums up Marciano.

Rocky Marciano: Is He a Top 5 All Time Heavyweight?

By Monte D. Cox

"Show me a fighter whose undefeated and I'll show you a fighter who hasn't fought anybody." --Whitey Bimstein, legendary boxing trainer.

In the recent 2005 IBRO (International Boxing Research Organization) polling of its members, most of who are authoritative historians with research backgrounds or boxing writers, Rocky Marciano was rated # 5 amongst the celebrated heavyweights of history. A couple of members remarked their surprise at Marciano’s high rating. Obviously a solid majority thought highly enough of Marciano for him to finish in the top five. How good was Rocky? Was he an all time great? Is he overrated as some contend or underrated by the majority of younger members and modern fights fans? Is he a deserving top 5 all time heavyweight champion?

Rocky Marciano is the only unbeaten and untied boxing champion in history. 49-0 is his legacy. Of his 49 wins 43 came by way of knockout. His knockout percentage of 87.75 is the highest among all heavyweight champions. He is 7-0 in title fights. On his accomplishments alone he deserves consideration for a spot among the ten best heavyweights ever. To determine whether he deserves a top 5 spot one needs to look closely at Rocky the fighter and his record.

One of the biggest knocks on Marciano is that he was small for a heavyweight when compared to more modern heavyweight punchers. Rocky’s physical stats were 5' 10 1/4" and 184-185 pounds in his prime, which is fairly small. His reach was 68” - 4 inches shorter than Floyd Mayweather, for example. Despite his lack of size Marciano was a great pound for pound puncher. He was physically strong with superb tendon strength and he never entered the ring in less than top condition.

Rocky brought punching power, a high work rate, endurance, durability, excellent conditioning and the will to win into every fight. He also carried his power into the late rounds, which is a short list of punchers of which only Joe Louis and Joe Frazier definitely belong with Marciano. Rocky came inside low in his crouch to get underneath his opponents and was not as easy a target to hit as some fans think. He was unceasing in his firing of his hammer blows at his opponent’s, although he lacked punching accuracy. Rocky was an “anywhere hitter” but anywhere he hit, he hurt. Rocky was known to bust the blood vessels in his opponent’s arms as they covered up trying to protect themselves from the onslaught. He nearly clubbed Carmine Vingo to death; he survived but was never able to fight again.

Ring ****zine founder Nat Fleischer wrote that in terms of boxing ability Marciano was "crude, wild swinging, awkward, and missed heavily. In his bout with light heavyweight champion Archie Moore, for example, he missed almost two-thirds of the fifty odd punches he tossed when he had Archie against the ropes, a perfect target for the kill." However, in fairness to Marciano, he was a stubby armed swarming style fighter, not a boxing master. He certainly wasn’t in there to outbox anyone. He had to get inside and let his hands go, and that is what he did. He got the results that were required of him as his high knockout percentage attests to.

Since Marciano’s claim to greatness is based largely on his unbeaten record one must put his quality of opponents under the microscope. It is true that most of Rocky’s best opponents were past their prime when he faced them. Jersey Joe Walcott was 38-39 years old, Ezzard Charles was 32-33 and was at his peak at light-heavyweight and 175 pound champion Archie Moore was 42. One of the best men Marciano defeated prior to winning the title was Rex Layne. Layne lost often when he stepped up in competition. Another of the top contenders Marciano faced was Lee Savold whose career record was 89-37-3, hardly inspiring. Rocky came up in one of the weakest periods in heavyweight history, in fact the only era that is weaker than the early mid 50's amongst heavyweights is the current crop.

Joe Louis was the biggest name on Marciano’s resume, but he was 37 years old and had lost much. By the time of their fight the once legendary Louis had “long since lost his once devastating punch” as Nat Fleischer wrote. This is true because Louis depended greatly on speed, timing and sense of distance for his hitting power. His lost reflexes robbed him of his explosiveness and therefore his punching power. Louis still was a solid fighter when Marciano beat him because he was fundamentally sound, but he lacked the speed and power that he once possessed.

In a comparison Joe Louis fought much better competition than did Rocky Marciano. Marciano never fought the big 200 pounds plus hitters and giants that Louis did. The only top notch heavyweights that Marciano defeated who weighed over 200 pounds were a fat Don ****ell who weighed 205, and Joe Louis in his last fight. Louis, on the other hand, defeated Primo Carnera who was 6’6” 260 pounds, Max Baer 6’ 3” 210 pounds, Buddy Baer 6’5” 237 pounds, and Abe Simon 6’4” 260 pounds. Louis was at his absolute best against the big men because of his speed and explosive power. Rocky’s chin was never tested against a really big first tier heavyweight puncher. The two best punchers that he did fight, Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore both put him on the canvas. Marciano would be favored over the giants that Louis defeated, but he simply never faced anyone of such size and strength in his career. Could Marciano make 25 successful title defenses against Louis competition? Possibly, but he would have struggled more doing so. He made only 6 title defenses and decided to rest on his laurels.

When looking at Marciano’s opponents one must ask the question “Is there one person that Marciano beat that Joe Frazier would not beat?” The answer is clearly no. Joe Frazier would have little trouble with Marciano’s opponents and would easily have gone 49-0 against them. Frazier’s only career defeats were to Muhammad Ali and George Foreman. How would Marciano have fared against Frazier’s opponents? Marciano would be an underdog to Ali and would likely lose a decision. Ali was more susceptible to a left hook, Frazier’s bread and butter punch, than he was to a right hand, which was Rocky’s best shot. Cus D’Amato once said that, “No swarming heavyweight who ever lived could beat George Foreman coming to him.” Marciano would have had the same trouble trying to get inside George’s long arms and massive uppercuts, as did the bobbing and weaving Frazier. It seems highly unlikely that Marciano could overcome the freakish power of the much larger Foreman in a slugfest. Frazier holds a win over Muhammad Ali and defeated other quality heavyweights such as Jerry Quarry who were superior to most of Marciano's competition. Had the two all time greats switched era's Frazier would have been 49-0 and Marciano would likely have had losses to Ali and Foreman on his record.

Who were the lineal champions since Jack Johnson who would not be favored over Marciano’s competition? Jess Willard, Jack Sharkey, Max Schmeling, Primo Carnera, Max Baer, Jim Braddock, Floyd Patterson, Leon Spinks, Mike Spinks, and Hasim Rahman is a short list in the nearly 100 years of boxing history since Johnson.

John Durant author of The Heavyweight Champions wrote in 1971 (pg 123,) “Critics do not rate Rocky with the great ones, like Jeffries, Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, and Louis. He never faced topnotch fighters like they did. It was not Rocky’s fault, of course, that there was not much talent when he was fighting. He fought them all and that is what a champion is supposed to do.”

Rocky’s unbeaten record is certainly not without tarnish. Many believe that Marciano actually did lose to Roland LaStarza in their first fight but got a gift decision. Jesse Abramson, boxing writer for the New York Daily Herald called it a “paper thin and exceedingly odd decision.” And it was “universally condemned around ringside as a miscarriage of justice”, according to newspaper reports. Even a member of the New England Press Corp, who would be inclined to favor Marciano in the New York bout against LaStarza, said it was a “dubious decision.” More than 50 years later LaStarza was incredulous of the decision, “I won that fight,” he maintained. In the New York Herald Tribune, Mar 25, 1950, LaStarza said, “The fact is his manager Al Weill was matchmaker for the Garden. I would say that had a lot to do with the decision.”

After the LaStarza fight Marciano's handlers were afraid to put him in with anyone who could fight. His next opponent was Eldridge Eatman who had lost 8 of his last 9 fights. Tiger Ted Lowry who had a career record of 60-54-9, went the distance with Marciano. Others such as Harold (Kid) Mitchell, Art Henri, and Willis Red Applegate all had losing records. It is little wonder that Rex Layne was a 9-5 favorite over Marciano when Rocky finally stepped up in competition. It should be noted that Layne was no world beater, like most of Marciano's top opponents Layne weighed well under 200 pounds and he finished with a career record of 50-17-3.

Today it is common to see Marciano rated over Jack Dempsey on many all time lists, mostly because of his undefeated record. Such views are completely revisionist when compared to those who actually saw them both fight. Anything that Marciano could do Jack Dempsey could do better. Dempsey was nearly as strong a puncher with his right, stronger with his vaunted left hook, had much greater hand speed, was more maneuverable, a better boxer, had a better jab, was more cut resistant, was a faster starter and was just as tough and durable.

[ProBox1]

Consider that in the Dec. 1962 Ring ****zine poll of 40 boxing experts it was Jack Dempsey that was rated the # 1 Heavyweight of all time with Joe Louis 2nd, Jack Johnson 3rd and Marciano finishing a distant 7th, way behind Dempsey. If he was considered 7th in 1962 how does he propel to the top 5, when since then we have had Muhammad Ali who faced much tougher competition, the big power hitting George Foreman, Larry Holmes who made 20 title defenses, the bigger, faster and more powerful Mike Tyson, and the giant Lennox Lewis who at 6’5” 245 pounds would enjoy a 60 pound weight advantage over Marciano? This is a key point. Nat Fleischer rated Marciano at # 10, Charley Rose rated him at # 8, McCallum's survey of old-timers had him at # 9. No major historian who saw Maricano in their lifetime thought he was a top 5 all time heavyweight and 50 years have passed since Rocky retired as champion.

The caliber of opponents is most important in evaluating greatness. Tommy Morrison and Roy Jones, for example, looked great against lesser opponents but pitted against the top men of their class, their shortcomings in other assets were exposed and their ability was offset by other attributes that better opponents of theirs possessed. Marciano was never so tested because his level of competition was so weak.

Rocky Marciano was a great, but limited slugger who is admired for his toughness, endurance, conditioning and punching power. When rated against the other all time greats he compares to them in punching power only. He lacked the fundamental skills of Joe Louis, the quickness on attack of Jack Dempsey, or the quality of opponents of Joe Frazier. Marciano’s place can be argued amongst the top 10, but top 5 seems too high due to his lack of competitors. If Rocky were 48-1, he likely would not make the cut at all.

[Tony Blitz]

He was a plodder who came forward and ate punches in order to land his. Now dont get it twisted there is nothing wrong with that if it works for you.

I read that is why he was so powerful. He would throw punches with the worst intentions of harming his opponent and not be afraid of taking a shot, so he'd charge up with everything he got. When you start thinking about the guy hitting you back when you're about to throw a powershot you're not gonna be throwing it at 100%. Look at Tyson also, look at that mean look he always has when he throws those powershots.

[tommyhearns804]

Rick nice little post but Maricano doesnt compare to any 220 pound heavyweight who could punch power because he wasnt a heavyweight.Foreman was 45 and 2 with 42 ko's fighting far superior opponents than Marciano fought.Tyson fought better people.Lewis did.Frazer did ect ect ect.So if those fighters i just named would of fought the fighters Maricano fought and could use smaller gloves like Maricano used wouldn't logic tell you their ko percentage would be even higher?
You can't compare anything about Maricano to any 200 pound heavyweight.He had good stamina?And?He weighed 180 pounds so of course he would have better stamina than a 230 pound fighter.He was busy?Sure he was against low level opposition.
Marciano would beat Jones Jr?Highly unlikely.Maricano had troubles beating Moore.If you think Jones has a weak chin then you don't know much about Moore.He was knocked out more times than Jones.He was knocked out in one round by a fighter i never heard of.Moore was knocked down more than Ali,Foreman,Frazier,and Norton combine.Moore wasn't really that fast.Moore was 42 years old when Marciano fought him.The older you get the less fluid you have around your brain.So the Moore Marciano fought should of been easier to knock out.But yet it took Marciano 9 round of wild swinging and clubbing to knock out Moore who was knocked out at least 10 times in his career.Moore also knocked down Marciano with one punch.I am sure Jones could do the same and just bust up Marciano until the ref stopped the fight.Lacy could knock out Marciano.He is a much bigger puncher than Moore or Walcott was.Even a fighter like Toney would make a fool out of Marciano and stop him.
Marciano is only known today because of his skin color and because he never lost fighting bums.Again he isn't a all time great heavyweight because he isnt a heavyweight and he isnt a all time great fighter at any weight class because he never fought or beat any good fighters who were still in their primes.

[ProBox1]

Marciano was not in Foreman's era, or Ali's era or etc. He fought who he was able to fight in his own era. You can't knock a guy for beating a far less caliber of fighters when a far less caliber of fighters is what he had around him. He was the biggest name heavyweight fighter during his reign and there was no big name challenger to fight him. Marciano fought in one of the weakest eras of heavyweight boxing, Unlike Ali who fought in what most call the best heavyweight era in boxing.