After Arreola-Adamek I have noticed a new trend has started

[infamous larryx]

how are the klits to big??haye moved up from cruiser and beat the biggest heavyweight champ ever..valuev

[TheGreatA]

Schmeling, an outstanding opponent? Come on. If you count that as an outstanding opponent, I could count Brewster, too, since he too beat Wlad, and then Wlad avenged the loss. Jersey Joe Walcott was past his prime. Which good fighters did Baer defeat to be considered an outstanding opponent?

Well, I personally think Schmeling is a top 30, maybe even a top 20 all-time great heavyweight so I rate him very highly. Walcott got better as he got older and was at his absolute peak at the time he faced Louis, having single-handedly cleaned out the division while Louis was in the army. Baer defeated fighters like Schmeling, Farr, Schaaf, Carnera, Heeney, Risko, so he was definitely a good fighter and a big puncher. Also a great character, and it counts.

Cooney was hyped, so what? So beating an overhyped opponent means more than beating a better opponent that has less hype? Beating Haye, would be better than beating Chagaev, just because Haye has more hype? I don't think so (unless Haye manages to go on a tear from now on, of course). All the other opponents you have mentioned were ok, but certainly not better than Chagaev, Ibragimov, Peter and the like, based on accomplishments, not on hype, except Norton who is a level or two above them, but that's the only one.

Yes it would be for Wladimir's all-time standing. I don't think there's any doubt that KO'ing Haye spectacularly would do more for Wladimir's career than the Chagaev win, fair or not. In my hypothetical situation Haye would go onto beat the likes of Adamek and Povetkin and then face Wladimir. That's a career-defining fight right there.

Steward has also said that if Wlad keeps dominating for 2 or 3 more years he'll be up there.

And he will be, but he would up there with a single win if one outstanding challenger emerged out of today's group of contenders. A fight that would have people talking about it.

[Pirao]

Well, I personally think Schmeling is a top 30, maybe even a top 20 all-time great heavyweight so I rate him very highly. Walcott got better as he got older and was at his absolute peak at the time he faced Louis, having single-handedly cleaned out the division while Louis was in the army. Baer defeated fighters like Schmeling, Farr, Schaaf, Carnera, Heeney, Risko, so he was definitely a good fighter and a big puncher. Also a great character, and it counts.



Yes it would be for Wladimir's all-time standing. I don't think there's any doubt that KO'ing Haye spectacularly would do more for Wladimir's career than the Chagaev win, fair or not. In my hypothetical situation Haye would go onto beat the likes of Adamek and Povetkin and then face Wladimir. That's a career-defining fight right there.



And he will be, but he would up there with a single win if one outstanding challenger emerged out of today's group of contenders. A fight that would have people talking about it.

Walcott was not at his absolute peak when he faced Louis, and had not been cleaning anything, in fact he was 3-2 in his 5 previous fights and went on to lose every single meaningful fight he had after facing Louis. Baer, as I said, didn't defeat a single outstanding opponent, why do you consider Schmeling a top 20 HW when the only thing he did was beat Joe Louis and then got destroyed in the rematch?

If Haye defeats Adamek and Povetkin, then yes, I would agree that Haye would be a very good win for Wlad. I was refering as of right now, Haye would not be a better win than Chagaev, because his accomplishments are simply not better than Chagaev's, no matter how much hype he has. I refuse to rank fighters higher just because they're overhyped.

We agree then, Wlad just needs to keep dominating even if there are no outstanding opponents, to become an ATG eventually.

[TheGreatA]

Walcott was not at his absolute peak when he faced Louis, and had not been cleaning anything, in fact he was 3-2 in his 5 previous fights and went on to lose every single meaningful fight he had after facing Louis. Baer, as I said, didn't defeat a single outstanding opponent, why do you consider Schmeling a top 20 HW when the only thing he did was beat Joe Louis and then got destroyed in the rematch?

That's very interesting. Walcott may have been 3-2 but his losses were recognized as bad decisions which he avenged.

If you look at the division's ratings at the time Walcott faced Louis, he held wins over rated contenders Jimmy Bivins, Elmer Ray, Lee Q Murray, Joey Maxim, Curtis Sheppard, Tommy Gomez, Joe Baksi, Lee Oma.

How did he lose every meaningful fight after losing to Louis when he beat Ezzard Charles and Harold Johnson, two all-time greats? He lost to Marciano in one of the greatest fights of all time where Marciano was losing until catching up to Walcott late.

Baer defeated Schmeling, which counts as an outstanding opponent for me. Why? Because Schmeling beat Louis, but also because he beat Jack Sharkey, Young Stribling, Paulino Uzcudun, Steve *****, Walter Neusel, Johnny Risko, Mickey Walker, and generally looks impressive when I watch his fights on film.

[Pirao]

That's very interesting. Walcott may have been 3-2 but his losses were recognized as bad decisions which he avenged.

If you look at the division's ratings at the time Walcott faced Louis, he held wins over rated contenders Jimmy Bivins, Elmer Ray, Lee Q Murray, Joey Maxim, Curtis Sheppard, Tommy Gomez, Joe Baksi, Lee Oma.

How did he lose every meaningful fight after losing to Louis when he beat Ezzard Charles and Harold Johnson, two all-time greats? He lost to Marciano in one of the greatest fights of all time where Marciano was losing until catching up to Walcott late.

Baer defeated Schmeling, which counts as an outstanding opponent for me. Why? Because Schmeling beat Louis, but also because he beat Jack Sharkey, Young Stribling, Paulino Uzcudun, Steve *****, Walter Neusel, Johnny Risko, Mickey Walker, and generally looks impressive when I watch his fights on film.

Ezzard Charles was a light heavyweight. Do you think if Wlad defeated Chad Dawson, it would count as a great win for him?

Sheppard, a guy with 22 loses when Walcott beat him was a top contender? Must have been a piss poor division, then. Vitali was winning the two fights he lost until he got caught too, I don't see people giving him credit for it.

Jack Sharkey an outstanding opponent? I think we have different definitions of outstanding opponents. He also KOed Schmeling in the rematch. All the other guys you mention are worse than a Chagaev, and you don't seem to think much of Chagaev. Looking impressive on film against so-so opposition doesn't mean much for me, Haye looked pretty good against Ruiz too, doesn't mean he's an outstanding opponent, you need a good resume for that, not looking good.

[TheGreatA]

Ezzard Charles was a light heavyweight. Do you think if Wlad defeated Chad Dawson, it would count as a great win for him?

Charles was the heavyweight champion of the world. If Chad Dawson was the heavyweight champion then yes, it would count for Wladimir. Byrd used to be a super middleweight but it counts for him.

Sheppard, a guy with 22 loses when Walcott beat him was a top contender? Must have been a piss poor division, then. Vitali was winning the two fights he lost until he got caught too, I don't see people giving him credit for it.

Sheppard could hit. Wladimir lost to Ross Puritty. Vitali is best known for his losing effort against Lewis, but to be honest it was not quite like Walcott's epic fight with Marciano.

Jack Sharkey, apart from being no ATG, KOed Schmeling in the rematch. All the other guys you mention are worse than a Chagaev, and you don't seem to think much of Chagaev. Looking impressive on film against so-so opposition doesn't mean much for me, Haye looked pretty good against Ruiz too, doesn't mean he's an outstanding opponent, you need a good resume for that, not looking good.

Sharkey didn't KO Schmeling in the rematch, he actually won a horrible robbery which can be seen on film. Schmeling won it clearly but they took the fight from him. Schmeling's opposition wasn't so-so, they were top ranked contenders during their era of boxing. If Wladimir KO'd 10 Chagaev level opponents and then beat a Joe Louis, he would be recognized as an all-time great, so why not Schmeling?

[paul750]

Because deep down people know that the Klitschkos will not be beaten by these fighters. If we can see some really good, entertaining fights between the other heavyweights then that is better than watching a guy being dominated.

You've got Haye, Povetkin, Adamek, Solis etc. These men could potentially provide better entertainment. Solis needs to lose a lot of weight, though.

[Pirao]

Charles was the heavyweight champion of the world. If Chad Dawson was the heavyweight champion then yes, it would count for Wladimir. Byrd used to be a super middleweight but it counts for him.



Sheppard could hit. Wladimir lost to Ross Puritty. Vitali is best known for his losing effort against Lewis, but to be honest it was not quite like Walcott's epic fight with Marciano.



Sharkey didn't KO Schmeling in the rematch, he actually won a horrible robbery which can be seen on film. Schmeling won it clearly but they took the fight from him. Schmeling's opposition wasn't so-so, they were top ranked contenders during their era of boxing. If Wladimir KO'd 10 Chagaev level opponents then beat a Joe Louis then he would be recognized as an all-time great, why not Schmeling?

That Charles was HW champion is a testament to the division being worse than it is now, I doubta LHW will ever make it up to HW and defeat the HW champion (keep in mind I'm refering to defeating THE champion, not picking a belt). Byrd was a HW for most of his career. Was Ezzard Charles a HW for most of his career?

He lost to Ross Purity when he was still coming up and far from the finished product, not when he was in his prime, you said Walcott was in his prime when he fought Joe Louis. Vitali is known for losing to Lewis, yes, but being known is different than getting credit for it, in fact Vitali gets a lot of flak for it, and he didn't get KOed, the doctor stopped the fight.

Where can I watch said fight? Schmeling didn't beat 10 Chagaev level opponents, those opponents were much worse than Chagaev. I could as easily argue that Schmeling's win against Louis is proof that Louis wasn't that good, and not that Schmeling was good, just like people do with Sanders and Purity.

[Pirao]

Because deep down people know that the Klitschkos will not be beaten by these fighters. If we can see some really good, entertaining fights between the other heavyweights then that is better than watching a guy being dominated.

You've got Haye, Povetkin, Adamek, Solis etc. These men could potentially provide better entertainment. Solis needs to lose a lot of weight, though.

A bunch of guys should duck the top fighters in the division and fight each other to see who is #3, that's what some boxing "fans" want these days

[Uturn]

id prefer to see adamek vs haye, the winner should fight wlad