Comments Thread For: When Jess Willard upended Jack Johnson: Did Johnson really take a dive?

[BoxingUpdates]

One hundred and ten years ago, Jess Willard bested Jack Johnson in the sweltering Havana heat. Or did he? Johnson's pride has likely skewed the historical record.
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[1Eriugenus]

Probably the best or second best non-fiction book I've ever read is about Jack Johnson. Its called 'Unforgiveable Blackness' & it is unbelievably brilliant in its scholarship as well as being really elegantly written. It pretty much dismisses any suggestion Johnson lay down but it makes clear that, by this stage in his career, he was so worn down by the abuse he faced that boxing sickened him & he could no longer bother to train properly. If you ever can read the book because it is exceptional.
(If you're wondering my other contender for best non-fiction book I've ever read is 'Profession of Violence' about the Kray twins).

[ShoulderRoll]

Old, inactive and out of shape yet still swept the first twenty rounds against Willard in that heat. Johnson must have been something at his best.

[1Eriugenus]

You've also got to remember that in those days they negotiated everything, not just the money, size of the gloves, but size of the ring, number of rounds, everything was negotiated. If the fight had been agreed for 20 rounds, Johnson probably could've survived everything & come through, even 25 rounds would have been OK, but Willard's people instead on 45 rounds. Likewise, when Joe Gans fought Battling Nelson Nelson's people insisted on 45 rounds. That was a way of nullifying speed & skill & making it just a battle of survival.

[JeBron Lamez]

Probably the best or second best non-fiction book I've ever read is about Jack Johnson. Its called 'Unforgiveable Blackness' & it is unbelievably brilliant in its scholarship as well as being really elegantly written. It pretty much dismisses any suggestion Johnson lay down but it makes clear that, by this stage in his career, he was so worn down by the abuse he faced that boxing sickened him & he could no longer bother to train properly. If you ever can read the book because it is exceptional.
(If you're wondering my other contender for best non-fiction book I've ever read is 'Profession of Violence' about the Kray twins).

That book is phenomenal!

It's where I learned that Johnson wore gold grillz in his mouth (which of course made me admire dude even more lol).

[Bull Pit]

I’ve never understood the high standing Jack Johnson receives personally. Maybe he was ahead of his time In regards to his defensive work or was it what he did before winning the title. Come to think of it Johnson was way ahead of Mayweather due to the fact that Johnson refused to give the guy’s who troubled him earlier in his career a rematch after Jack beat Tommy Burns . The money was with the white fella. I don’t believe jacks story about taking a dive in the 25th round absolutely crazy. As for Dempsey Willard well you only have to watch Dempseys ring entrance. Dempsey entered the ring with no wrapping on . It was applied in the ring with all watched. In fact it was a new procedure at that time to prevent messing with gloves and hand wraps endorced by Dempsey himself.

[JeBron Lamez]

I’ve never understood the high standing Jack Johnson receives personally.

Yeah I mean that's kinda unsurprising but education is everyone's friend, friend.

[Dr Z]

I’ve never understood the high standing Jack Johnson receives personally. Maybe he was ahead of his time In regards to his defensive work or was it what he did before winning the title. Come to think of it Johnson was way ahead of Mayweather due to the fact that Johnson refused to give the guy’s who troubled him earlier in his career a rematch after Jack beat Tommy Burns . The money was with the white fella. I don’t believe jacks story about taking a dive in the 25th round absolutely crazy. As for Dempsey Willard well you only have to watch Dempseys ring entrance. Dempsey entered the ring with no wrapping on . It was applied in the ring with all watched. In fact it was a new procedure at that time to prevent messing with gloves and hand wraps endorced by Dempsey himself.

He was an overrated fighter with mixed results. The smaller men exposed him, while he avoided the best three men as champion.

[Willow The Wisp]

Tangentially....

Jess Willard was the equal of Vitali Klitschko in terms of size, technique, style and ability.

H2H I'm picking Willard based on superior toughness.

[turnedup]

I’ve never understood the high standing Jack Johnson receives personally. Maybe he was ahead of his time In regards to his defensive work or was it what he did before winning the title. Come to think of it Johnson was way ahead of Mayweather due to the fact that Johnson refused to give the guy’s who troubled him earlier in his career a rematch after Jack beat Tommy Burns . The money was with the white fella. I don’t believe jacks story about taking a dive in the 25th round absolutely crazy. As for Dempsey Willard well you only have to watch Dempseys ring entrance. Dempsey entered the ring with no wrapping on . It was applied in the ring with all watched. In fact it was a new procedure at that time to prevent messing with gloves and hand wraps endorced by Dempsey himself.

No fighter has ever entered the ring with the level of hostility Johnson did every time after he publicly started demanding a shot at the title. The amount of death threats, attempts on his life, his mothers life, and the fact had he been shot or stabbed to death and the killer would’ve become a national hero is enough distraction to ruin most people’s lives. The fact he did what he did through all of that by itself says plenty about the man and why he is so regarded by people who actually read his story in full detail. Imagine walking around every day of your championship run with a giant target on your back in an era we’re the law would’ve looked the other way had someone hung him from a tree.