Comments Thread For: Oleksandr Usyk Comes In At Career-High Weight For Showdown With Anthony Joshua

[Superbee]

If Usyk made his homework, he will aim for the right side of the head like Ruiz and Klitschko did... It's definitely Joshua sweet spot... AJ will go down at least once...

[_Maxi]

At 222lbs at 6ft 3 I wonder if he was 6ft 6 what weight would that translate to? I guess proportionally they are about same size

Eh... The same applies if you compare most boxers of most divisions.

[Monty Fisto]

I honestly doubt you know what “scanty” means in this context. There aren’t that many Southpaws out there and most boxers go through their whole careers without fighting one. And apart from Oldtiz, Usyk (who just moved up), Martin and Wallin - I doubt there’s any other Southpaw in the top-30 of the HW division (I’d pick Martin to beat Wallin and Oldtiz).

So in this context - does “scanty” make any sense whatsoever when Southpaws are rare in the division?

Yes, he’s excellent against Southpaws (I did mention both the pro and amateur ranks) because he has never lost against one. Is that too difficult to grasp? - his record against Southpaws is 100%.

There’s absolutely nothing shaky about citing Cammarelle who’s one of the greatest Southpaws and amateurs that ever laced it up in the division since he beat almost every top-rated contender in the current pro ranks. And he beat all of them convincingly by a wide margin. Cammarelle was also more gifted as a Southpaw than Usyk (Usyk still box mostly with an amateur style by tapping with his gloves).

You’re the one grasping at straws here since you have no argument. And I’m shocked you have stopped parroting the absolute nonsense narrative that Martin only came for a cheque. We’re getting there…

I have an argument, a very simple one, and I laid it our previously. There is insufficient evidence to claim he is excellent versus southpaws. That's it.

If you want to say he was great against southpaws in the amateurs, fine you can have it. If you want to suggest this has a strong bearing in the pro ranks, I disagree. The amateur ranks are substantially different to pro boxing in many ways, from number of rounds, to length of rounds, to how fights are scored and therefore fought.

I wouldn't put much stock in a fighters first few pro fights, when they are learning the trade. Why then would I put stock in their amateur career which is further before and significantly different in character?

Two rounds as a pro. Scanty evidence: meaning insufficient to make an informed judgement.

I'm not sure I agree with your statement that many pros go their whole careers without fighting southpaws, but let's say we accept that as true, it agrees with what I'm saying even more. I say there's little evidence he is excellent as a prize fighter against southpaws. You say southpaws are exceedingly rare. These things agree with each other.

I don't think he'll have a problem with Usyk, but I don't think his four and a half minutes against Charles Martin tells us much. I don't see how you are struggling with the fact that a few minutes against a southpaw as a pro doesn't tell us much.

[Monty Fisto]

Usyk looked lean at 221lbs, which is a bit of a surprise.

[BangEM]

I have an argument, a very simple one, and I laid it our previously. There is insufficient evidence to claim he is excellent versus southpaws. That's it.

If you want to say he was great against southpaws in the amateurs, fine you can have it. If you want to suggest this has a strong bearing in the pro ranks, I disagree. The amateur ranks are substantially different to pro boxing in many ways, from number of rounds, to length of rounds, to how fights are scored and therefore fought.

I wouldn't put much stock in a fighters first few pro fights, when they are learning the trade. Why then would I put stock in their amateur career which is further before and significantly different in character?

Two rounds as a pro. Scanty evidence: meaning insufficient to make an informed judgement.

I'm not sure I agree with your statement that many pros go their whole careers without fighting southpaws, but let's say we accept that as true, it agrees with what I'm saying even more. I say there's little evidence he is excellent as a prize fighter against southpaws. You say southpaws are exceedingly rare. These things agree with each other.

I don't think he'll have a problem with Usyk, but I don't think his four and a half minutes against Charles Martin tells us much. I don't see how you are struggling with the fact that a few minutes against a southpaw as a pro doesn't tell us much.

Sigh. How can you even make an argument about “scanty evidence” when Southpaws are rare? He fought a few in the amateurs and 1 of the 2 rated contenders in the HW division before Usyk moved up. And he has an excellent record. What other evidence do you need?

Usyk mostly has an amateur style and despite all the noise about his skill set as a Southpaw - he’s not as skilled as a Southpaw and tricky as Cammarelle was in the amateur ranks. And Usyk hasn’t even looked great in the HW against the washed boxers he faced. Cammarelle on the other hand beat most of the top HW contenders in the pro ranks convincingly as an amateur.

Is Usyk’s pawing and moving without stepping into his punches style mostly an amateur style? When you answer this - you’d see why citing Cammarelle makes sense.

[Mikhnienko]

There’s absolutely nothing shaky about citing Cammarelle who’s one of the greatest Southpaws and amateurs that ever laced it up in the division since he beat almost every top-rated contender in the current pro ranks. And he beat all of them convincingly by a wide margin. Cammarelle was also more gifted as a Southpaw than Usyk (Usyk still box mostly with an amateur style by tapping with his gloves).

What you have stated about Cammarelle is all true but you're leaving out some relevant information. When Joshua fought him he was 34 years old and had been suffering significant back problems along with en elbow or should injury that required surgery. He was much more stiff in his upperbody movement, all around slower, and not comparable to how he was three or four years prior. He was also a fairly flat footed fighter with solid power and their styles aren't prarticularly similar. Cammarelle also arguably won that fight in spite of this.

[BangEM]

What you have stated about Cammarelle is all true but you're leaving out some relevant information. When Joshua fought him he was 34 years old and had been suffering significant back problems along with en elbow or should injury that required surgery. He was much more stiff in his upperbody movement, all around slower, and not comparable to how he was three or four years prior. He was also a fairly flat footed fighter with solid power and their styles aren't prarticularly similar. Cammarelle also arguably won that fight in spite of this.

No, he was 31 in 2011 and 32 in 2012. And after losing to AJ - he beat Yoka, Hrgovic and Medzhidov in almost shutouts. I guess his back wasn’t worrying him then, no?

Talking about stiff upper body - Usyk has stiff upper body and leans in with his punches. Expect his chest and shoulders to be punched in tomorrow.

Between, which of the 2 fights did he arguably win?

[-Kev-]

20lbs is about what Ruiz had on AJ in the first fight. When AJ lands, I think Usyk will feel it.

[Monty Fisto]

Sigh. How can you even make an argument about “scanty evidence” when Southpaws are rare? He fought a few in the amateurs and 1 of the 2 rated contenders in the HW division before Usyk moved up. And he has an excellent record. What other evidence do you need?

Usyk mostly has an amateur style and despite all the noise about his skill set as a Southpaw - he’s not as skilled as a Southpaw and tricky as Cammarelle was in the amateur ranks. And Usyk hasn’t even looked great in the HW against the washed boxers he faced. Cammarelle on the other hand beat most of the top HW contenders in the pro ranks convincingly as an amateur.

Is Usyk’s pawing and moving without stepping into his punches style mostly an amateur style? When you answer this - you’d see why citing Cammarelle makes sense.

How can you make an argument that it is substantive evidence when you acknowledge southpaws are rare?

In Joshua's 25 fights as a pro, he has fought 4 and a half minutes -- fewer than two whole rounds -- against a southpaw. Is this enough to draw a pattern from or is it insufficient to draw a pattern from?

I say it is insufficient.

The reason I say this is that is axiomatic that it is so. Any objective, reasonable person would not draw a conclusion from such a small amount of evidence.

If you want to dig your heels in over such a self-evident point, I can't help you.

[sportbuddha]

There’s a bit being overlooked by many. Firstly, they are both European style boxers, there isn’t a massive gap in technical skill that gives Usyk the advantage people claim. Secondly, there is a persistent power vs speed argument. Against Chisora, Usyk had every advantage, he probably hit about as hard, was quicker, more technical and was the same size, but he didn’t blow him away. Now, all of sudden people see him breezing through AJ who is better in every dept than Chisora and more naturally gifted. Nah, it’s a good match up, but on attributes alone the book makers have the right idea.