Teddy says Pernell is higher than Manny on the All Time list...

[El Chicano]

What do you all think?

Who's accomplishments are better and warrant a higher ranking on the ATG list?

Discuss.

[crold1]

What do you all think?

Who's accomplishments are better and warrant a higher ranking on the ATG list?

Discuss.

As of now, Pea. Manny's done things Pea hasn't (in terms of divisions) but Pea has a complete career to look at and a LOT of greatness on it. He also faced a wider range of styles (so far). We've never seen Manny against a fighter who is truly elusive; that's a style which will round out his picture.

[IMDAZED]

Why is this a surprise? We've debated Pea's standing extensively this week and I'm amazed how easily his accomplishments are discarded. In their respected Top 80 of the past 80 Years list, Ring ****zine had Pea ranked number nine. Not top 20, not top 15, but top 10. His accomplishments are ridiculous, the dominant manner in which he won equally impressive.

Manny Pacquiao is top 30-50 IMO at the moment. He could rise significantly following a win over Floyd, for instance. But until he does that, this isn't even a debate.

[The Hammer]

I don't take anything he says seriously. Atlas is an idiot who predicted Hatton would beat Pacquiao.

He predicted Rahman, Ibragimov and Thompson would defeat Wladimir.

[El Chicano]

As of now, Pea. Manny's done things Pea hasn't (in terms of divisions) but Pea has a complete career to look at and a LOT of greatness on it. He also faced a wider range of styles (so far). We've never seen Manny against a fighter who is truly elusive; that's a style which will round out his picture.

Pernell's career accomplishments surpass what Manny has done to date? Back up your statement.

[ugly2000]

Sweet Pea is a top ten p4p. As of right now he should be way higher than Manny on the all time list.

[Scott9945]

As of now, Pea. Manny's done things Pea hasn't (in terms of divisions) but Pea has a complete career to look at and a LOT of greatness on it. He also faced a wider range of styles (so far). We've never seen Manny against a fighter who is truly elusive; that's a style which will round out his picture.

I agree with you Cliff. Whitaker didn't have a decisive loss until he fought Trinidad well after his prime. It's no insult to Pacquiao to rate him behind Pernell Whitaker, at least at this point in time. Obviously wins over opposition like Cotto, Mayweather, or Mosley could change this.

[Benny Leonard]

Whitaker would beat Pac in my opinion. If Pac thought JMM gave him hell, what would he think of Whitaker?

[crold1]

Pernell's career accomplishments surpass what Manny has done to date? Back up your statement.

Okay and this is coming from someone who thinks Pac has the foes and chances to move past Pea....

There's more to accomplishment than title wins.

Pernell accelerated much faster than Manny, fighting guys like Roger May and Layne before he was 15 fights in. Manny won the Fly title, but he did it as a raw talent. No one would have picked that Manny to becoem what he has.

Ramirez and Haugen were the equal if not better of Pac's first two title win foes (Sasakul and Ledwaba). Pernell cleaned out Lightweight, beat an ATG Jr. Lightweight in Nelson, and established himself as one of the five to ten best ever at 135.

Pac hasn't earned a top ten spot in any weight class yet.

Pea then went on to beat McGirt and Chavez, both P4P top guys in three outstanding performances and had a multi-defense reign at Welter lasting four years. Chavez was a still undefeated ATG in his own right. Only the the first McGirt fight was close of the three noted and he aced Rivera in their return as well. Before the first McGirt fight, he may have legitimately lost four-five rounds his whole career. Not fights; rounds...and against serious opp.

Then, past 30, he goes up to 54 and beats Vasquez about 10-2 after Vasquez defended ten times with wins over Castillejo and Winky.

Then, with his reflexes going, and without a great punch, he finds one anyways to overcome Hurtado and then makes a fool out of a much younger Oscar with nothing more than a jab and head movement.

Then, at 35, he manages to compete with a prime Tito, enduring a broken jaw for the first clear loss of a 15-year career.

Pea may well have been the best fighter in the world for a full eight years and was the best defensive fighter since at least Locche.

[sandyvahra]

I got Whitaker right now as well. Whitaker had more skill, & his resume is very solid. Dominated lightweight for awhile. Probably a top 3 defensive fighter all time in anyone's book. The way he dominated JCC was telling.