Ali sports century

[hellfire508]

Bah that post is massive. I really can't be bothered going through the whole damn thing. I'll just skim over it.

Umm, firstly.. I thought Norton beat Ali, but I didn't think Young or Shavers did. We recently had a poll at ESB on Ali-Shavers, Ali won the poll convincingly. A while back was Ali-Young, Ali also won that poll.

I really can't be bothered discussing Louis any more, it was just a random thing I brought up to point out the best available fighter was not always faced, I was never trying to compare the two reigns.

Patterson, yeah, poor effort by him.

Overall, good post, I disagree on the Young and Shavers fights (though I do acknowledge they were very close fights, and I wouldn't protest too much if Young had gotten the decision). But basically, after these long posts, we've gotten nowhere. Ali didn't fight the best possible fight ever fight, which I acknowledged from the start, but I don't see what else there is to argue? He should have given rematches? That's about it.

[SABBATH]

Hellfire, you might want to read my lengthy post before Yogi's regarding the standard Ali is being held to compared to Louis...

[hellfire508]

Yogi,

Me thinks thou is attempting to flame some of our younger perhaps less informed posters south of the 49th.

Comparing Ali's opponents to those of Joe Louis is apples to oranges because of the eras they fought in. Ali consistantly fought the top fighters of his era and thus can be excused for Dunn and Coopman (Evangelista was rated top 10 from 1976-79 and no worse than some Joe Louis title contenders).

There may have been a demand for Ali-Norton 4 because of Ali-Norton 1,2 & 3. Because of the social atmosphere of the USA in the 30's and 40's, Louis did not have to fight the best available contenders because Joe didn't grant title fight opportunites to the top black heavyweight fighters of his era. That is a fact.

Light-heavyweight John Henry Lewis was a friend of Joe's and got the title fight as a financial favour. Lewis had his boxing licence revoked shortly after the fight when it became known that he was in fact legally blind.

The next black fighter that Louis fought was his last challenger Jersey Joe Walcott who had to fight and defeat most of the other top black heavyweights to get his title shot, and only after obtaining a number one ranking. So from 1937-47 Louis fought one black man, a legally blind light-heavyweight. Sounds to me like Louis drew the color-barrier.

Black heavyweight Jimmy Bivins was rated #1 by Ring ****zine in 1942 and was later considered the 'interim heavyweight champion' when Louis was in the Army. That year, Louis instead of fighting Bivins, rematched with Buddy Baer who earned his rematch by being inactive after already being convincingly defeated in 7 rounds by Louis. And let's not forget that Baer was defeated by black heavyweight Eddie Blunt the same year and two fights before his initial title opportunity against Louis, but hey Blunt was black and Baer was white so who got the title shot?

Bivins would defeat Tami Muriello for the second time in 1943 before going undefeated in 25 fights leading into 1946 before dropping a split decision to Walcott. During the same time frame that Bivins was going undefeated, Muriello would lose two fights before getting a #1 ranking and a 1946 title fight with Louis.

Getting back to Blunt, it's interesting to note that in 1940 Blunt KO'd Tony Musto in 7 rounds. In Musto's next fight he was outpointed by undefeated black heavyweight Buddy Walker (rated #5 in 1940). Musto 'earned' his 1941 title fight with Louis by winning only 2 of his previous 6 fights and just 5 of his previous 14 fights. Musto was likely the second least deserving challenger that Louis fought (more on #1 Jack Roper later). Why was Musto given a title fight instead of Blunt or Walker who had just defeated him? Perhaps because Musto was white and Blunt and Walker were black?

Louis granted a title fight to Abe Simon one month after Simon lost a decision to black heavyweight Jim Thompson. Louis then granted a rematch to Abe Simon who 'earned' his second title fight with Louis by getting floored 4 times and knocked out by black heavyweight Lem Franklin in 5 rounds. But the #2 ranked Franklin was black and Simon was white so Simon got the title shot.

As for Franklin, he went 18-0 with 17 KO's from 1940-41 and defeated Willie Reddish, Eddie Blunt, Jimmy Bivins, Curtis Sheppard, Tony Musto and Abe Simon all by KO. During this same time frame, Louis gave title fights to Al McCoy who was coming off two losses, Arturo Godoy who was coming off a loss and was 2-2 in his last 4 fights, and Musto who had just lost Walker, Blunt, Burman and Godoy in his last 6 fights. .

When Billy Conn went into the Army and was inactive from 1942-46 he somehow recieved a #1 heavyweight contender ranking (after being completely absent in the ratings from 1942-44) which lead to his rematch with Louis. Granting Conn #1 contender status after 4 years of inactivity is a joke. During the time that Conn had ZERO fights, black heavyweight contender Elmer 'Violent' Ray was somehow rated below Conn at #4. Not surprisingly, during Conn's period of inactivity, Ray went 47-1 with 40 KO's. So Louis rematched with Conn because of public demand? Fair enough. However, after the Conn rematch Ray would continue on his winning ways going 9-0 with 8 KO's eventually being rated as high as #2, never getting a title shot and eventually dropping a majority decision to Jersey Joe Walcott in 1947 when Ray was 37 years old and now past his prime.

Black heavyweights Roscoe Toles (rated top ten 1937-39) and Jack Trammell would defeat Harry Thomas in 1936 and 1937 before Thomas went on to a 1938 title fight with Louis.

Turkey Thompson (rated top ten 1941-43, 1947) Lee Q. Murray (rated top ten 1943-47) Curtis Sheppard (rated top ten 1943-46) Harry Bobo (rated top ten 1942) are some of the other deserving black heavyweights that Louis never granted title fights to.

Louis closed the door on better qualified black challengers in favour of less deserving white fighters like Al McCoy who 'earned' his title fight with two straight losses. The worst example being the hapless Jack Roper who had been beaten 40 times and suffered 13 KO's before facing Louis in a title fight. And this was Louis in his fighting prime! Why was he fighting such a stiff? This title opponent was so embarassing that afterwards The California State Athletic Commission would be highly criticized for even sanctioning this mismatch.

To Roper's credit he was coming off an impressive (for him) one year 7 fight undefeated streak. Incidentally, the last man to defeat him had been black heavyweight Al 'Big Boy' Bray.

An excellent post Sabbath. Well done.

[Yogi]

You are aware that Roy 'Tiger Williams' was employed as Ali's sparring partner and was beaten by Richard Dunn?

I'll wait for your response to my previous post....

I was aware of the Williams/Ali relationship, yes, but I do admit that I didn't check the records of Dunn & Williams. I see that now...Dunn got the decision over Williams a few years before, which took place in Dunn's hometown...

It was a work!

Nah, I can't say that, because I'm not aware of the specifics of the bout, and it's not all that important in how it pertains to the discussion seeing as how I don't have a strong opinion either way on the point I was trying to make there...Norton, especially, and Young were my answers to Hellfire's questions, whereas Shavers was named as another "close" possibility (the Foreman fans can take up his case he they so choose, but I personally could care less about Foreman).

And...

I see your other lengthier post there, and once again it seems like the only defense for Ali's actual ducking of Norton, is accusations of Louis also doing some kind of ducking.

It may have been with you, but I can remember having a fairly detailed discussion about Louis and the black heavyweight of his time on here. I looked into that then (via the news arhchives and whatnot), and I didn't see anything that stood out or made it even close to obvious that Louis was ducking any black fighters of his day. I mean, sure...Louis defended against some opponents that weren't as qualified as (black AND white heavyweights included), but back then when I did do some contemporary research, I failed to see an strong argument.

This is a completely different situation than the Ali/Norton one, but if you guys are so hell bent on discussing or discrediting Louis and his choice of opponents, then I'll bite and try to defend Louis, I guess.

But in the meantime, without briinging up Louis' name, can somebody actually defend Ali and his "Ali rejects Norton's demands for a rematch" (a fight that the postfight reports show that even Ali and his people had doubts about the decision) "I'm bigger than boxing" (when threatened to be stripped of his title), and his other comments & actions such as him claiming the proven most capable, number one contender didn't deserve a rematch until he defeated the other top ranked contenders?

Ok...I'll get on the Louis subject, although some archived info may have to be looked up again by myself (some specifics I still remember from my previous research, but I don't want to pull a boxrec blunder like I did with Williams & Dunn). I might even have to address each point in seperate posts, as this discussion/post will likely be of some length if I didn't go that route.

Wait, before I get to Louis, a couple of things...

Evangelista wasn't rated at year's end in 1976 from what I see, and considering he did nothing from that time but lose to Zanon before facing Ali, I can't see any reason why he would have been rated as a top ten contdenr by The Ring going into the fight with Ali. I can only assume Evangelista got the ranking in the 1977 end of the year annual on the strength of going the distance with Ali and his picking up the European title...I don't see any evidence to suggest Evangelista was ranked by The Ring before the fight, though.

"There may have been demand for Ali-Norton 4."

No need to use "may" because there WAS demand for another fight and lots of it. Norton demanded it, as did the WBC. The boxing fans demanded it, as they wanted to see the issue settled, etc., etc...It was THE single biggest fight to be made in the division (any division, actually) at the time, and the purses talked about suggest it would have been the highest paying fight in history...Archived readings state purses in the $15 million range, to be split between the fighters.


Ok, moving on...

[SABBATH]

According to The New York Times:

Nov 6, 1977 "If Muhammad Ali's public declaration in the ring before the fight means what it said, Ken Norton won a fourth shot at the heavyweight champion by winning a razor-close, split decision over Jimmy Young tonight."

Jan 6, 1978, "Muhammad Ali has formally filed an agreement with the World Boxing Council to Fight Ken Norton, thereby avoiding being stripped of the heavyweight championship."

January 8, 1978 "In a flourish of apparent conformity, Muhammad Ali has complied with the World Boxing Council edict that he defend the world heavyweight title against Ken Norton..."

Of course in Ali's next fight he lost to Leon Spings ending the possibilty of Ali-Norton IV.

Ali may have dragged his heels on Ali-Norton IV as Ali's retirement plans back then shifted day to day. Ali was afforded no more leniency than Joe Frazier who didn't grant Ali a rematch while Ali was #1 contender from 1971-73. Joe instead defended against stiffs like Ron Stander and Terry Daniels. No outcry to strip Frazier of his title do I recall...

[Yogi]

Jimmy Bivins is the first name you brought up, Smasher, but do a timeline on that...Bivins was rated in The Ring rankings as the top contender at 1942 year's end. In 1941, he was no where to be found in their heavyweight ratings.

You are aware Louis was already enlisted in the army at the end of 1942 (when Bivins was ranked), and had been for a year previous?

"The toughest fighter in the world became a soldier of the United States Army here yesterday as Joe Louis, the Negro boy whose battling fists have brought him $2,263,784 and the world's heavyweight championship, enlisted to fight for his country at $21 a month." - Jan 13th, 1941 issue of NY Times

You are aware that the army wouldn't allow Louis to defend the title against anybody from May/June of that year on, aren't you (May reports state that Louis was "likely to be "barred" from defending his title, and after pleading his case, it was only a couple of weeks later that he was officially barred from fighting by the army, with the stipulation being he had to finish basic training first)?

The only fight talked about of Louis' for the remainder of the year was a much anticipated rematch with the very deserving Billy Conn, preliminarily scheduled for the fall of that year, and the only reason that fight was talked about in the first place was because both fighters were in the military and their complete fight purses would have went to benefit the military. But even then that proposed matchup fell through before too long, as the army pulled the plug on that possibility (led by Secretary Stimson)...

Louis wasn't even allowed to fight a charitable event against a fellow soldier (Bivins wasn't, so...the Simon rematch was also a charitable fight between soldiers willing to give their purses for military benefit), who was also his #1 contender and most desevring challenger.

Buddy Baer was ranked ahead of the unranked Bivins in Jan of 1942 (based off the 1941 year end), so...Using a timeline, though, I'd like to hear your case as to why an unranked Bivins should have gotten the shot over a not only higher rated fighter, but an actual ranked fighter...Cause he was black?

Bivins #1 position gained by the end of 1942 appears to be largely based on his work over the last few months of 1942, with wins over contenders like Pastor and Savold...All after the army closed the book on any chance of Louis defending the title.

Had the army not barred Louis from fighting and had allowed him to defend his title through the war years, then yes, Bivins would have had the pedigree and the postion to garner a deserved title shot. But nothing he did before that time suggests he was a "ducked" challenger or anything like that...Nor have I ever found any mention of a possible Louis/Bivins matchup (not even an issued challenge by Bivins) from before the war while searching through the news archives.

We could discuss Bivins deserving a title shot after Louis was discharged from the army in Oct of 1945, but that would leave us with a closed window of only a few months, and after Louis & Conn had already signed a deal to finish their business they started earlier...A big money fight I might add that the boxing public couldn't wait to see happen again (LOADS of anticipation written about in the press in the year or two up to the fight).

By that time Louis was discharged, Bivins' most recent fight was a "close unpopular decision" over some guy named Yancy Henry (Who?), and it wasn't but a few months later when Bivins was getting beat up by Walcott...Yeah, maybe it was a SD for Walcott, but the fight reports don't describe it as being much in the way of a close fight...


"Walcott defeats Bivins.

Bivins was soundly licked all the way. For most ring observers' money, he didn't win more than two of the ten rounds and a big share only gave him one heat."


Worth noting, that in addition to winning the vast majority of the rounds according to "most ring observers", Walcott also knocked Bivins down in the seventh and "battered" him for the rest of the round.

Through the war years when the title was frozen and some of the heavyweights were in the military, Bivins was judged to be the best active heavyweight in the world going by The Ring's ratings (given that same #1 position by the NBA for the first time in July of 1943). That was the only time frame when Bivins was a logical & much deserving challenger to Louis' title, as largely both before and after that period of war, Bivins comes up short.

Ok, that's enough about Bivins for now...

Who's next?

Umm...Eddie Blunt?

Is that the same Eddie Blunt who worked as a sparring partner for Louis, who, during those sessions, was reported to have "battered Blunt", "stagger Blunt" or "BLUNT BADLY BATTERED...Louis halts action against partner after one round" (three quick quotes from three seperate sessions/days)...

"Getting back to" THAT Eddie Blunt?

[Yogi]

I'm taking a bit of a break, Smasher, and I'll get on with Elmer Ray, who besides Bivins, is said to be the other most deserving black challenger from Louis' time.

I see a 47-1 streak or whatever it was, yet just browsing Ray's record I see absolutely nothing in the way of impressive victories over ranked contenders from that streak...Besides Walcott, which he may not have won from, could you find one ranked contender that Ray beat during that time, because a quick browse didn't show anything to me?

Ray has a bit of a cult following nowadays (some of the stuff written about him nowadays is revisionist history stuff), it seems, but why should Louis have fought him instead of Tami Mauriello?

Mauriello was ranked higher as a contender (and had been for some time), and actually had recent wins over ranked heavyweight contenders when he stepped into the ring with Louis (Wood**** & Oma, to name two...Speaking of "works", those two names together brings up a good & interesting story from Mullan's boxing enclyclopedia).

But Ray was considered for a possible title shot after Louis faced Mauriello, as the pre-fight reports from the first Walcott/Ray fight illustrates that they were clashing for "a shot at Joe".

"The likely next victim to be served up to Joe Louis will be trotted out and put on display for the folks in Madison Square Garden tomorrow night." - Washington Post, Nov 15th, 1946

Victim trotted out?

That's some pretty derogatory terms for a fighter who Louis was supposedly ducking, but who knows...It might be indictive of the boxing public's views on Ray.

Now, Ray was given the nod in that fight from the judges, but was said to have "failed to impress" in doing so. I don't know if the fight was unfairly judged or whatnot, but I do know that Ray "failed to impress" so much that the N.B.A stated that neither fighter were worthy of a title shot and left the #1 contender spot open when their next quarterlies came out ("No logical contender").

Ray & Walcott fought a rematch three months later, Walcott knocked Ray down three times in Ray's hometown, and yet still could only come home with a majority decision.

The better black heavyweight at the time got the next shot at Louis.

P.S. Looking over Ray's record again, I still don't see a ranked conteder that was defeated by him during that three year streak of his.

[SABBATH]

I will try and revisit this when I have more time but let me state that I have never said Louis 'ducked' anybody. I was quite clear that Ali and Louis came from two different eras and a comparison to the two fighters in terms of challengers was "apples to oranges".

Black heavyweights in the Louis era did not get the same opportunities afforded white heavyweights. It was a sign of the times. Many were avoided and those white heavyweights that did fight and lose to them were able to rebound immediately with title fights against Louis like Bear, Simon, and Musto did.

I also have never stated that any of the black heavyweights that Louis did not fight would have beaten him, although there is always that possibilty especially when talking about punchers like Ray and Franklin.

There is a clear double standard here. Black fighters miss out on their title opportunities due to one loss or a "failed to impress" win as was the case in Ray-Walcott. Never mind that white fighters were granted title fights with Louis coming off of losses as was the case with McCoy and Godoy (sounds like a comedy team...McCoy and Godoy, I like that) .

Louis as far as I'm concerned also 'failed to impress' in his fight with Walcott. In fact he 'failed to win' IMO.

Elmer Ray doesn't have any notable wins during his 47-1 40 KO's stretch besides Walcott? Ray also KO'd Lee Savold in 2 rounds during this run. Do you think an explosive puncher like Ray just might have been avoided at this time by a guy like Mauriello who had been decked by John Thomas, Lee Oma, Joe Baksi, Lee Savold (twice), Lou Nova, Jimmy Bivins and Gus Lesnevich?

I would take those wins over Walcott and Savold over Mauriello's KO of Bruce Wood**** (sorry can't help smirking at that name). Wood****'s resume is pretty shallow and his #5 ranking was likely based on his undefeated record at the time. All of his fights were in England leading up to his Mauriello loss and I question if the powers that be responsible for his rating had ever seen him fight. I don't quite see how this win elevates Mauriello to #1, unless he was being groomed for a title fight which appears to be the case.

Looking at Mauriello's record during this time, I fail to see him take a risk against Walcott, Lee Q Murray or Ray. You can make a case for Mauriello being rated #1 at the end of 1945, but he had been twice defeated by Bivins who had wins at this time during his own undefeated run against Lee Q Murray X2, Curtis Sheppard and Melio Bettina. Bivins also should have been rated higher than Mauriello IMO.

Eventually Bivins lost decisions to Walcott, Murray and Charles but that is the inevitable when you face the best black contenders. I can't envision Mauriello coming out on the winning end of multiple fights against the likes of Walcott, Murray and Charles.

As for newspaper accounts I wouldn't put a lot of stock in the newspaper accounts of Ray being trotted out as a 'victim'. The same things were being said about the 10-1 underdog Walcott, which was completely unfair when looking at his resume. It appears that outside of Louis, black heavyweights weren't afford a great deal of respect in the media during this time.

Again, a sign of the times.

Always a slice Yogi. I will try to revisit this later as I would like to discuss Lem Franklin, although this discussion should have taken place over at our other water cooler...

[butterfly1964]

Wow! See? That's why I love this forum. All this information is very interesting, and I commend both Sabbath and Yogi for making this very enjoyable. Good k for both guys!

[SABBATH]

Louis wasn't even allowed to fight a charitable event against a fellow soldier (Bivins wasn't, so...the Simon rematch was also a charitable fight between soldiers willing to give their purses for military benefit), who was also his #1 contender and most desevring challenger.

I'm scratching my head over why or how exactly Abe Simon was granted a rematch with Louis.

Simon was KO'd in 13 rounds by Louis in March 1941. Then in October 1941 Simon was KO'd by black heavyweight Lem Franklin in 5 rounds being floored in 4 different rounds. Franklin's win over Simon "strengthened his claims for a chance at Joe Louis's crown" according to the New York Times.

"FRANKLIN HALTS SIMON IN FIFTH; Finishes New York Giant in Eight Rounds Less Than It Took Louis to Turn Trick

CLEVELAND, Oct. 20 (AP) -- Lem Franklin, 201, of Cleveland, scored a fifth-round technical knockout over 255-pound Abe Simon of New York in their scheduled ten-round match at the Arena tonight, to strengthen his claims for a chance at Joe Louis's crown.

Now Franklin was no journeyman. Going into the Simon fight, Franklin had 23 KO's in 27 wins and the Simon win was his 18th KO in his last 19 fights. The decisive Simon KO elevated Franklin's ranking to #2 in the world behind the #1 rated Billy Conn who had already been KO'd by Louis in June of that year. Should getting KO'd in a gallant effort in a title justifiably make Conn the #1 contender? Incidentally, Simon was rated #5 at the end of 1941 after getting KO'd by Franklin.

The Simon KO capped of an excellent run by by Franklin who went 18-0 with 17 KO's during which time from 1940-41 he defeated among others Willie Reddish, Eddie Blunt, Jimmy Bivins, Curtis Sheppard, Tony Musto and as previously mentioned Abe Simon with all wins coming by KO. During this same time frame, Louis granted title fights to Al McCoy who was coming off two losses, Arturo Godoy who was coming off a loss and was 2-2 in his last 4 fights, and Musto who had just lost Walker, Blunt, Burman and Godoy in his last 6 fights. Simply put, none of those fighters were more deserving of a title shot than Franklin

So Lem Franklin was rated higher than Simon. Lem Franklin convincingly knocked Simon out 5 rounds. Lem Franklin was on an impressive winning streak. Joe Louis had already knocked Simon out.

WHY DID ABE SIMON GET A SECOND TITLE FIGHT WITH JOE LOUIS INSTEAD OF LEM FRANKLIN?