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Triangle Theory versus "Styles make fights."

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    Triangle Theory versus "Styles make fights."

    People who know boxing are an incredible resource when one is learning how to look at fighters. I started publishing articles on boxing, all the while trying to learn what to look at, from posters who knew a lot more than I did.

    In so doing, I discovered something that makes a lot of sense, and is often revealing, regarding the knowledge of a particular poster. While I mean no disrespect, when one looks carefully at two axioms: "Triangle Theory" versus "Styles make fights" only one is correct. Many posters still use triangle theory, vis a vis the performance of a fighter against a common opponent, as a means to argue the greatness of a fighter... I will show why this is flat out Wrong.

    When we use triangle theory, what exactly is it about the common opponent that makes the fighter in question "better" or "worse?" For example, When we say Louis losing to Schmelling, who was beat by max Baer, means Baer potentially could have been more competative with Louis... Why would this be so? What actual reason would suggest such a conclusion? The theory tells us little to nothing about an actual reason.

    Now, we could look for specific reasons why Baer might be more competative because of the common opponent (Max Schmelling) but these reasons are unconnected to the theory. If for example, Schmelling found a technical loop hole, and exploited it, how would this make Baer a stronger opponent?

    Triangle theory amounts to suppositions drawn from generalizations and assumptions, and little else. The fact that Schmelling found a technical tool to best Louis has nothing to do with his fight and ability against max Baer. There is literally no connection.

    On the other hand, when we look at styles as determining a reason for a victory and possible outcome, things make more sense. Lets take the same example above with Baer. Schmelling had a technical style that allowed him to exploit foibles against an opponent, that was a characteristic of Schmelling's approach to boxing. This style initially flumoxed Louis, but did not cause the same problems for Baer. One could draw the conclusion that Schmelling's style was more of a threat to Louis than Baer.

    We can isolate what Schmelling actually did to verify this conclusion: Louis dropping his right coming back caused a flaw that Baer did not have. Schmelling's style was more effective against Louis (at least initially) than Baer. The reason specifically was the mechanics of the right... Baer threw his from the shoulders, while Louis threw his from the waist. This positioning allowe Schmelling to time the right coming back and loop his own shot over, before Louis could follow up.

    In conclusion, lets discuss both theories. To me? one is specific and verifiable, the other is nebulous, and incapable of empirical validation (tape). I find that people who think they know a lot, and use triangle theory logic, are blind to what the theory implies.

    #2
    The triangle theory is just an observation of a fighter being better than the other by virtue of being too advanced, i.e. the saying "there are levels to this". However, its an oversimplification of what really gives fighters advantages over others. The term "styles make fights" is an acknowledgement that the dynamics that favor different fighters are more complicated and vary depending on the individual fighter's styles, tendencies, strengths and weaknesses.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by billeau2 View Post
      People who know boxing are an incredible resource when one is learning how to look at fighters. I started publishing articles on boxing, all the while trying to learn what to look at, from posters who knew a lot more than I did.

      In so doing, I discovered something that makes a lot of sense, and is often revealing, regarding the knowledge of a particular poster. While I mean no disrespect, when one looks carefully at two axioms: "Triangle Theory" versus "Styles make fights" only one is correct. Many posters still use triangle theory, vis a vis the performance of a fighter against a common opponent, as a means to argue the greatness of a fighter... I will show why this is flat out Wrong.

      When we use triangle theory, what exactly is it about the common opponent that makes the fighter in question "better" or "worse?" For example, When we say Louis losing to Schmelling, who was beat by max Baer, means Baer potentially could have been more competative with Louis... Why would this be so? What actual reason would suggest such a conclusion? The theory tells us little to nothing about an actual reason.

      Now, we could look for specific reasons why Baer might be more competative because of the common opponent (Max Schmelling) but these reasons are unconnected to the theory. If for example, Schmelling found a technical loop hole, and exploited it, how would this make Baer a stronger opponent?

      Triangle theory amounts to suppositions drawn from generalizations and assumptions, and little else. The fact that Schmelling found a technical tool to best Louis has nothing to do with his fight and ability against max Baer. There is literally no connection.

      On the other hand, when we look at styles as determining a reason for a victory and possible outcome, things make more sense. Lets take the same example above with Baer. Schmelling had a technical style that allowed him to exploit foibles against an opponent, that was a characteristic of Schmelling's approach to boxing. This style initially flumoxed Louis, but did not cause the same problems for Baer. One could draw the conclusion that Schmelling's style was more of a threat to Louis than Baer.

      We can isolate what Schmelling actually did to verify this conclusion: Louis dropping his right coming back caused a flaw that Baer did not have. Schmelling's style was more effective against Louis (at least initially) than Baer. The reason specifically was the mechanics of the right... Baer threw his from the shoulders, while Louis threw his from the waist. This positioning allowe Schmelling to time the right coming back and loop his own shot over, before Louis could follow up.

      In conclusion, lets discuss both theories. To me? one is specific and verifiable, the other is nebulous, and incapable of empirical validation (tape). I find that people who think they know a lot, and use triangle theory logic, are blind to what the theory implies.
      You can't fix ******. Like the old saying goes, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink".

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post
        You can't fix ******. Like the old saying goes, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink".
        Wow! All I did was ask "What about the triangular argument: Schmeling-Louis-Baer?" Just asked, that's all I did and I get called ******?

        Ok, I get it! . . . For all the complaining you guys do about trolls, you sure your not out there creating them?

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post
          Wow! All I did was ask "What about the triangular argument: Schmeling-Louis-Baer?" Just asked, that's all I did and I get called ******?

          Ok, I get it! . . . For all the complaining you guys do about trolls, you sure your not out there creating them?
          Im confused... I don't see your post and then I see Jab's post to that very post, quoting my initial post. Can you repost the comment?

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post
            Wow! All I did was ask "What about the triangular argument: Schmeling-Louis-Baer?" Just asked, that's all I did and I get called ******?

            Ok, I get it! . . . For all the complaining you guys do about trolls, you sure your not out there creating them?
            I wasn't talking about you. In fact, whether I agree or disagree with you I've always appreciated your opinions and contributions.

            Comment


              #7
              First off . . . I'm just teasing.

              I thought I was the one that set you off on debating the triangular theory; I had asked what you thought about about the Baer-Louis-Schmeling triangle. ("Your Thoughts on the: Joe Louis vs. Max Baer fight, 1935" Post #31)

              I realize now I wasn't the inspiration for this post; I think I'm hurt, I thought my question was your inspiration. Oh well!

              BTW I agree with your assessment, the triangular theory usually doesn't hold water. One of the best examples is Foreman-Frazier-Ali.

              I don't agree with Jab's assessment I'm ****** though; it has been a bad day for me, first Jab calls me ******, and then Queenie calls me a ghoul.

              Still just teasing.

              Comment


                #8
                A theory is a useful template to pull together facts that are consistent and apply under certain conditions. When we look at Triangle theory at first it seems to make sense: "Well if Jim can beat Stan, and Stan can beat Paul, Jim is the better fighter." Lets look at some problems with this:

                1) Ok assuming the statement above is true "HOW" is it true? What does Jim do that specifically makes him qualified as better? To say that beating Stan makes him the best does not tell us anything that we can apply consistently to other scenarios.

                2) In Boxing we don't get enough data to confirm such a conclusion. For example, take this statement: "James Toney would have beat the beaks off Jones! He had a bad day at the buffet table and was not prepared for the fight." Now... lets assume we live in a universe where we can test the validity of this theory... we would have to have Jones and Toney fight at least a few times...

                Fact is, we never do have such a luxury. Fighters today especially may fight 3 times at most, with some notable exceptions. For triangle theory to work, we would have to have a situation like the middle weight tournament that Andre Ward won. And we would have to have the fighters fight each other more than once.

                3) There is no real definition of "beat" that is standard and acceptable objectively. According to history Chavez defeated Whitaker... Most people think this was a robbery though. EVEN though the fight to many was a wash out where Chavez was exposed... it cannot be validated. Boxing is ultimately too subjective an enterprise to have a standard of besting an opponent that is universal.

                I fought hard when posting... while posters like QueenB and Houdini were already greasing the skids at message boards I was debating posters who were kind enough not to beat up on the casual (me) about how ridiculous the axiom was that "Styles make fights." As a martial artist, if you cannot kick the guy in the head, you use a backfist... if you can't get the reverse punch working, you use a circular shuto (ridgehand) attack... You make it work with the presumption that if you do not you may not "be" around, to correct the problem, or as Ed Parker was fond of saying "he who hesitates meditates in the horizontal position.

                But when you look at the fights, and see technical details, and how they figure into victory/defeat, you realize that our style is a major liability in so far as it can be predicted by an opponent. That is why when an upcoming fighter, who has done well, and us exposed has a major liability: The blueprint has been written. Professionals are good enough to exploit such a blueprint.

                Hence, Juan Ma, a punching machine, was done when he tried to overpower Salidad. It became apparent that if an opponent could hang in there, Ma did not have the boxing skills to maintain his punching attack. "Styles make fights" a puncher needs a way to deal with an opponent who cannot be overcome... If not? that style will be exploited, and the fighter will eventually become beaten.

                For example, when we talk about Hank Armstrong, what made Homicidal Hank so dangerous an opponent? I would say it is the same that made Moyomoto Musashi such a dangerous killer. I said killer because Musashi was not, despite popular misconception, a good swordsman. He beat people with strategy and having an attack that was relentless... sound familiar regarding Hank? One way to become great is to develop a style that is so natural, so effective, that there is no blueprint that can defeat it...

                The Mongols are another example right? Except that when the Japanese saw the Mongols attacking, instead of letting them gain a major birth (a mistake the Japanese made the first attack), they went out and never let the Mongols set up. The Samurai learned from their mistakes the first battle. They were fortunate that the Mongols could not get reinforcements because of the storm, the first battle. The second time they met the Mongols out at sea, and let the storm do the rest.

                My point is that the axiom "styles make fights" is universal and applies to all battles: those pitched in a ring, on a battlefield, in the office, etc. Another example: A mafia boss who was known to be smart and effective, had to make deals with Gotti. This guy realized Gotti had to "win." So his strategy was to set up a capitulation to Gotti, that would make it appear that John had won big... when in fact, reading the fine print, he got the better of Gotti.
                Last edited by billeau2; 09-21-2020, 12:35 PM.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I'm not trying to give you a hard time . . . just thinking out-loud.

                  From some of the examples in your post wouldn't it be more apt to use the phrase "tactics" make fights?

                  I agree with your point that it necessitates multiple fights before the triangle theory can be properly applied. That's why it's a best of seven World Series. (Baseball has such an advantage over every other sport, you can play it all day long, and then again tomorrow.)

                  I always thought that the term "styles makes fights" should be applied to the ring action that is generated by the fighters different styles, not necessarily offer insight as to who would win.

                  For example: Leonard-Benitez; Leonard-Duran; Leonard-Hearns. The ring action for all three fights was different and shaped by the three different styles the opponents brought to Leonard. But I don't see it as a good predictor of win -lose, just the anticipated action.

                  On the other hand: Loma-Lopez next month . . . IMO two distinct styles, but no clue what that will mean. LOL

                  I guess what I am saying, is that I agree the triangle theory has holes in it, but I am not sure if 'styles makes fights' is any better a predictor.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post
                    I'm not trying to give you a hard time . . . just thinking out-loud.

                    From some of the examples in your post wouldn't it be more apt to use the phrase "tactics" make fights?

                    I agree with your point that it necessitates multiple fights before the triangle theory can be properly applied. That's why it's a best of seven World Series. (Baseball has such an advantage over every other sport, you can play it all day long, and then again tomorrow.)

                    I always thought that the term "styles makes fights" should be applied to the ring action that is generated by the fighters different styles, not necessarily offer insight as to who would win.

                    For example: Leonard-Benitez; Leonard-Duran; Leonard-Hearns. The ring action for all three fights was different and shaped by the three different styles the opponents brought to Leonard. But I don't see it as a good predictor of win -lose, just the anticipated action.

                    On the other hand: Loma-Lopez next month . . . IMO two distinct styles, but no clue what that will mean. LOL

                    I guess what I am saying, is that I agree the triangle theory has holes in it, but I am not sure if 'styles makes fights' is any better a predictor.
                    The purpose is to debate, I would never consider it a hard time. I didn't come up with the axiom so I don't know what I would change, but yeah your rename seems a fair point.

                    Well... I see the axiom as a prelude. you recognize the efficacy a fighter has versus a particular style, or approach. I guess one could try to generalize based on fights: "a good big man beats a good little man" "the boxer usually wins the rematch against a puncher" etc...

                    Of course the principle can be used to describe many aspects, and is not necessarily about a superior style that wins. I think it becomes so when we see a fighter with a particular weakness, or strength regarding a match up.

                    I think you are over emphasizing the ability of any theory to predict an outcome. They all have their limits and with respect to predicting a winner, or loser, if there was any principle that could do so, the bookies would be out of business.

                    The real appeal to the theory IMO is how it gives us a post mortem of why, specifically, on a technical level, a fighter prevailed. But when we do this we start generally about a style, an approach, and work up to a specific aspect of that style allowing for execution.

                    To simplify: We can say Max Schmelling, a clever boxer puncher, was able to beat a great puncher, Joe Louis, with a style emphasizing countering and exploiting habits Louis had... Then we can further specify: "by dropping a left over Louis' right hand when it was not pulled back into position.

                    On the other hand? saying Max Baer is better than he fought against Louis because he beat Schmelling... even if it were true how? what about this win specifically makes the conclusion so? What technical information can we use to support this specific conclusion?

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